End-Time Events and the Last Generation: An Interview with Dr. George Knight

(Elmer Cupino) #284

At some point in time, Jesus has to learn to play the “second” fiddle to prove EGW right.

(Cfowler) #285

If Jesus was God and Human, which I believe, we can’t fully understand this. As you said, He had to be so different, even as a child and is something we can’t comprehend.


Our “best behavior” is nowhere near “not sinning.” We make mistakes. We have human flaws. We improve. We work on our flaws. But our offerings of a “sinless” life are totally filthy rags. It’s Christ’s Righteousness that covers a multitude of sinful-trying-to-be-perfect humanity inherent in us.

Yes, we “allow” Christ to work in us, but we can’t even imagine perfection much less reach it. Believing that you can reach perfection is a lie. It cheapens the gift of grace and eternal life and righteousness offered through Christ’s life and death.

(dale) #287

You are mistaken. I never said that I could reach perfection. I said is it possible for God with his power to keep me from committing any known sin. This isn’t about mistakes. It’s about the power of God. Does he have the power to help someone overcome all of their sins or is it just one or two or five. That’s the question at hand. Because I don’t think for a second that I have one iota of goodness in me. Any action that I do that is good, kind or loving is a direct result of the spirit of God moving on my heart as working in me. Where does his ability to help me end? This is a question no one has answered. Just pull the idea of perfection out and attack that but ignore the other questions that I posed.

Why does Peter say this? 1 Peter 2:21-23 KJV
[21] For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: [22] Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: [23] Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; u when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: …

And Jesus himself said in Matthew 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
So when God makes a statement like that is it true or is it not true because that’s what it boils down to. And when the Holy Spirit spoke through peter and said that Jesus was our example that we should follow after, wouldn’t it be cruel to give us a standard that we had no hope of ever coming close to attaining even with the combined power of the Godhead working on our behalf?

I know that me of myself cannot stop sinning. I give into my nature. It is impossible for me. God said what is impossible with me (man) is possible with God. Is God telling the truth or is he not telling the truth?

So the question that hasn’t been answered is this. Is God able to do the impossible or not. Because if he can do the impossible, it is possible for his power to keep me from sinning.if it isn’t then he is lying, but the bible does say that it is impossible for God to lie because when he speaks he causes the thing that is spoken to come to be.

(dale) #288

Not sinning and being perfect are not the same thing. Has God given you the victory over any sin? I know personally in my life God has given me victory over some very grievous sins. I am still a sinner and commits sin still. There are some sins that I no longer commit, but a mind blowingly long list of sins I still commit. If he can give me victory from some of what I consider the worst sins, what is stopping him from going further with me?

Is there a limit to what he can do? I don’t see any where in the scripture that states that. In addition I particularly hate some sins that I commit. Do I have no hope of having any relief from them? That I am stuck doing the thing I loathe?

(dale) #289

Please explain to me how the God working in someone to give them victory over sin deny the sacrifice of Christ? So every alcoholic who becomes sober or anyone who has given up any sin through the power of Christ is denying the sacrifice of Christ? Either God can give you victory over sin or not. As a person who has experienced addiction first hand I know that it was only God who gave me the victory over my addictions. If he can free me from that I don’t see how he can’t free me from other things. According to you my freedom from the sin of addiction denies the sacrifice of Christ. How much hope would I have had believing that there were some sins God couldn’t stop? Because I don’t know of anything worse to overcome than the sin addiction. So if you think I’m a heretic for seeing what God has done In my life so be it.

I believe that God can victory over sin Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

God saved me from my sin of addiction he didn’t keep me in it. I asked and he heard and answered. Would a loving God leave me in the clutches of addiction when I’m crying out to him to free me, and those around me who I’m causing to suffer? I can say praise God for a loving father who didn’t leave me in my sin. It was 100% God and 0% me.

So again please tell me how is victory over sin is heretical and denies the sacrifice of the cross.

(Cfowler) #290

I’ve never said that God doesn’t, through the Spirit, work in us to change our desire, and the direction of our lives.

You have posted texts that seem to convey the idea of not sinning at all. That we will reach the point of not having any sin in our lives. If that isn’t your point, then my apologies.

It still seems to be where you are heading with the comment,

Can you answer yes, or no. Are you suggesting that believers can/will reach a state of not sinning, at all, while in our fallen human flesh, in a fallen world?

(dale) #291

I have had an over 20 year struggle with addiction. I tried everything AA, treatment centres and nothing worked. Nothing at all. My family thought I was going to die from it. Virtually everyone in my life had written me off. Until I surrendered to God I was so completely hopeless I when I gave up doing it on my own. Every day I live free from It is a gift from God. It is him who is living out that freedom from addiction in me. It is nothing but Christ through his spirit living that in me. I have 0 delusions that the freedom I experienced is a result of my effort. I know I’m a sinner like everyone else, but where God says in Philippians 2:13 KJV
[13] For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. I get to experience a little bit of it everyday. The joy that it brings the happiness that it brings to those around me.

His victory over that is complete as long as I put my trust in him to keep me from it. I can always choose to walk away from it and go back to the bondage of addiction. Instead I choose him because he freed me. If God has the power to free me from the worst of that then everything else to him is not a hard thing.

I know that I have a leader who has never lost a battle. Is it possible for God to keep me from sinning I believe so. If he can free me the worst form of slavery I have ever experienced in my natural life what’s could stop him from taking care of the rest? The only thing that stops God from finishing the job he started is me. Because God gave us free will he will never override it even if it’s for our best interests. That is precisely why Jesus said pick up the cross and follow me. I can’t say who will or will not get there. All I know is that after God has done what he has for me I’m more willing to let him work in me than yesterday.

So simply put yes it is within Gods power to keep people from sinning. The problem is us, we push off the help God. It’s more like maturation in Christ. Are you at the stage that you should be in your development? Do I think that man is going to be at the pinnacle of his development before Jesus comes? Absolutely not. Will there be people at the stage that Jesus wants them to be yes.

I believe the sanctuary doctrine. There hasn’t been a more well developed idea in the bible than the sanctuary. God was extremely meticulous when he gave Moses exact details. I was how he preaches the gospel to Israel. Through the types and symbols. Quite frankly it is beautiful and elegant. It makes me admire the tiny glimpse we been given its to mind of God.

In the cycle of the sanctuary service the last thing was the day of atonement. The judgement day. If any Israelites had any unconfessed sins after the high priest left the most holy place he was cut off from Israel forever. Now Hebrews goes in detail about the sanctuary in heaven that was pitched and not man. When John sees Jesus in vision in revelation 1 he sees Jesus in the first apartment of the sanctuary because we can see the articles associated with the earthly sanctuary’s first apartment, which is a copy of what is in heaven. John sees distant future events then he sees into the second apartment of the sanctuary because he sees the ark of the Testament. That’s revelation 11. Then revelation 14 comes the 3 angels messages of the first which says the hour of God’s judgement has come, hearlding that antitypical day of atonement. In revelation 15 at the end there are seven angels coming out with the seven plagues. The temple is also now empty. There is no high priest. Judgement is now being meted out to the wicked in the seven last plagues which occurs before Jesus comes.

So from the typical sanctuary we know that when Jesus leaves the most holy place there is no more forgiveness for sin. We no Jesus is not in the temple because it said no man could enter the temple till all the plagues were given out. Who is the only man in heaven in the temple in the first place. The man Christ Jesus.

So if there is no high priest to minister on you behalf and you and you sin how do you get forgiveness for that sin? You can’t that phase is over. So yes I believe that God is going to mature people to that point. Also keep in mind there is going to be a massive outpouring of the Holy Spirit such as the world has never seen. Do I know how God is going to do that? No I don’t know how he is going to that anymore Than I know how he is going to bring people back from the dead. I just accept what the bible says. I can see that in the bible. I don’t base what I believe on what other people think I base it for what I can see for myself.

(Patrick Travis) #292

Dale, I offer you two ways in which “Last generation Theology” mirrors RCC theology. 1) Justification means “make righteous” rather than “reckon righteous.” 2) The work of the HS in making one sinless for justification (in the last generation) is the process accepted in RCC as “theosis.”

(dale) #293

the problem with that is this; God’s word is creative, when he speaks, those words cause the very things that were spoken to come into existence. The creation of the world is a lesson in faith. God speaks and what he says comes to be. When God does something how does he accomplish it? By the words that are spoken.

Each single sin no matter how small cost the spotless son of God his life. When Adam and Eve sinned that one sin it cost Jesus his life. I have a huge problem with sin. I hate it, it is absolutely offensive and repugnant. That’s no where close to how God views sin. I hate the bondage that sin places me in. The more I think about sin is the more I hate it and loathe it, what it does an how insidious it is. God is a being that has feelings, do you think that he feels good when we sin? Sin separates us from God. Is that a thing to just be ok with?

I’m sorry I cannot accept that God will just abandon me to languish in my sin. A God who loves me would never leave me to stay in the thing that I hate.

How could a loving God hear the cries of his child and not lift a finger to ease their suffering? You are telling me that’s the kind of God that sits on the throne in heaven?

Whenever I sin I hurt someone. I cause injury to someone because of my choice. I am not ok with that. I sin but I certainly don’t like it. Leaving me to suffer to live a life of doing things I hate seems like a life of torture to me.

Because if I saw someone suffering I would do whatever I could to ease their suffering. I’m a sinful man with a fallen nature. Can I expect the heart of infinite love to display less compassion than me? Not at all. The cross exemplifies the length that God would go to help us.

When God sent his son to die for our sins, he gave us everything that he had, he poured out all of heaven in the precious gift of his son to the fallen race. The fact that he gave us everything is evidence of the lengths that God will go to to help us. He will hold nothing back from anyone who wants to serve him. That’s the heart of infinite love that I see looking over his children with a watchful care.

I cannot reconcile that God is love, but he will leave me to suffer and be tortured by sin and the guilt associated with it. Sin is an absolute curse a blight on humanity. It is not love to leave someone to suffer when it is in your power to help. Explain to me how that demonstates love?

(Cfowler) #294

I’m so happy to hear about your freedom from addiction!!! And, yes I truly believe that God through the HS works in our lives…in the big battles and the small things. My goodness, i wouldn’t want to leave the impression that i believe otherwise.

Absolutely! That is what I believe too. We grow in our faith, our walk with God, in our understanding. We are born again/new creatures in Christ.

The sanctuary doctrine is way too much for me to get into. Suffice it to say, I don’t see it the same way you do, or the traditional SDA view.

If that is the case (which I don’t believe it to be), then God will have to work it out. He does the perfecting, right?

(dale) #295

Of course it is God’s work.

(Website Editor) #296