End-Time Events and the Last Generation: An Interview with Dr. George Knight


(b l d) #62

In studying the life of Jesus I know he dealt with others in truth and sometimes truth cuts like a sword. I apologize if I have upset you and it not my intention to do so. I do not pretend to know what you have studied or what resources you have used for your studies, based on the words you wrote is how I responded to you.

In Romans 6:14-16 Paul talks about sin not having dominion over us and that we should not sin just because we are under the grace of God and that whomever we yield ourselves to is who our master is.
14. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Child Guidence 466
No Time for Vacillation—**Purity of life and a character molded after the divine Pattern are not obtained without earnest effort and fixed principles. A vacillating person will not succeed in attaining Christian perfection. Such will be weighed in the balances and found wanting. Like a roaring lion, Satan is seeking for his prey. He tries his wiles upon every unsuspecting youth… Satan tells the young that there is time enough yet, that they may indulge in sin and vice this once and never again; but that one indulgence will poison their whole life. Do not once venture on forbidden ground. In this perilous day of evil, when allurements to vice and corruption are on every hand, let the earnest, heartfelt cry of the young be raised to heaven: “Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way?” And may his ears be open and his heart inclined to obey the instruction given in the answer, “By taking heed thereto, according to thy word.”8 {CG 466.2}
All are accountable for their actions while in this world upon probation. All have power to control their actions if they will. If they are weak in virtue and purity of thoughts and acts, they can obtain help from the Friend of the helpless. Jesus is acquainted with all the weaknesses of human nature, and, if entreated, will give strength to overcome the most powerful temptations. All can obtain this strength if they seek for it in humility.9 {CG 466.3}

I nor anyone else can show/point out a perfect person, only God can read the heart not man.


(Tom Loop) #63

If the earthly sanctuary system, with all it’s daily services, day of atonement, feast days, etc. was fulfilled at the cross when the temper veil was torn from top to bottom by an unseen hand,when christ died on the cross, demonstrating the end of that antypical system, why has SDA clung to this notion of an antypical day of atonement? For decades I bought into this notion of the IJ. I rejected LGT long ago, but in the back of my head I always figured you couldn’t help but believe in LGT if you clung to this notion of the IJ as EGW explains it. I tried to explain all kinds of reasons for believing in IJ but rejecting LGT. In the end it made about as much sense as claiming rain wasn’t wet.

SDA’s reject things like Passover and feast days, and rightly so, but cling to this notion of antypical day of atonement. What a cruel hoax.


(Kevin H) #64

I am in disagreement. with you. The problem is NOT from Mrs. White but reading Mrs. White via the anti-Jones and Wagner people, instead of her on her own. As I mentioned earlier the LGT people are looking for a different quality than anyone who ever lived before. Mrs. White was adamantly against this. She saw every generation as having people who reached the perfection of the last day generation, people who trusted completely in Christ that they were unshakeable.

People fall into four categories: One are those people like John Wesley, Job, Joseph who trusted God no matter what happened, even if they could not give the correct answers. Then there are those who have in one way or another opened their hearts to God however they understand or misunderstand. These people are saved but they are not fully settled into the truth. They might be shaken or neglectful. the third group are those who have not accepted God but who could and the fourth group are those who have completely hardened their hearts against God. Mrs. White differs from the LGT people in that she holds that everyone will fit the above categories, except that the second and third groups will at one time not exist. Only the first and last group. As there are things happening with both the increased work of Satan and the increased work of the Holy Spirit, people will either completely trust in God no matter what, or will become completely selfish no matter what.

As we learn more about Jesus we become changed. The mid 1800s are where we started to have an explosion in knowledge of the Bible. If we stop reading the LGT ideas into Mrs. White and start to read Mrs. White herself and stop reading the events of 135 AD, Augustine and the events of the 1500s into Paul and start to read Paul himself many of the problems will come to an end.


(Frankmer7) #65

The ultimate hermeneutical point is that the NT states that the entire OT is to be read through the lens of Jesus himself. This is how Paul and all the apostles understood the scriptures. This is clearly stated in John’s gospel, and the prologue of Hebrews. It is the entire premise of Romans and Galatians… Paul rereads the Hebrew scriptures and Israel’s story in the light of Jesus. And, this is stated by Jesus himself… the scriptures testify of himself.

Ultimately, Jesus is the substance and the lens through which we understand and discern the character, purposes, and love of God. To use the sanctuary as the ultimate lens, to me, is reversing the telescope. It’s a backwards view. It’s using an Old covenant shadow as the controlling factor to understand Jesus and God. It should be the other way around… as per the NT.

Thanks…

Frank


(Kim Green) #66

"In studying the life of Jesus I know he dealt with others in truth and sometimes truth cuts like a sword. I apologize if I have upset you and it not my intention to do so. I do not pretend to know what you have studied or what resources you have used for your studies, based on the words you wrote is how I responded to you."

So…I have a “half apology”? So be it. LGTarians don’t usually bother to ask questions or to clarify terms used and this is a mistake.

"I nor anyone else can show/point out a perfect person, only God can read the heart not man."

Absolutely…which is like saying, “I am a perfect cook, a perfect parent or spouse, etc.”- because, after all, only God can read the heart. “Perfectly” in the realm of imagination, supposition, and theory. We all have our “beliefs” which cannot be proven. Some of us are more honest about them than others.


(Frank Peacham) #67

I am sure you have read the blessings and curses that Moses demanded of believers. Not much Justification by faith here. Do you see any? Does this sound like a letter of Paul?

“Look, today I am giving you the choice between a blessing and a curse! 27 You will be blessed if you obey the commands of the LORD your God that I am giving you today. 28 But you will be cursed if you reject the commands of the LORD your God and turn away from him and worship gods you have not known before."

But if you ignore the Lord your God and are not careful to keep all his commandments and statutes I am giving you today, then all these curses will come upon you in full force: 16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the field. 17 Your basket and your mixing bowl will be cursed. 18 Your children will be cursed, as well as the produce of your soil, the calves of your herds, and the lambs of your flocks. 19 You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out."


(Kim Green) #68

"Ultimately, Jesus is the substance and the lens through which we understand and discern the character, purposes, and love of God. To use the sanctuary as the ultimate lens, to me, is reversing the telescope. It’s a backwards view. It’s using an Old covenant shadow as the controlling factor to understand Jesus and God. It should be the other way around… as per the NT."

Well said, Frank. It is ALL about learning of the character of God as exemplified through the life and teachings of Jesus. If this is not so…why be a Christian? We could simply be good Muslims, Buddhists, etc., etc. The only purpose that I can see in “reversing the telescope” would be in an attempt to “prove” one’s theological leanings instead of simply taking Jesus’s own words seriously that He came to “fulfill” the prophecies.


(Frank Peacham) #69

A good point. The Sanctuary is lesson book on the cost of sin and the path of salvation. Paul did not change this.

He removed all the OT requirements and commands by one stroke of the knife–circumcision. Moses nearly died because he failed to do this to his sons. Now nobody dies for this failure. For this is what obligated one to keep the laws found in the Torah. To Paul, faith alone, without works (commandments obeyed), reconciled us to God. A Gentile could be become a new “Hebrew,” without Moses or any of the hundreds of laws that required obedience or God’s displeasure, his judgments will surely follow. The prophets spoke often of judgments that followed disobedience. Now, thanks to Paul, 100% of Christians are in a state of continual disregard and denial of laws of the OT and the Torah. Best of all God’s judgments do not follow!


(Frank Peacham) #70

This EGW statement is a strong inducement toward self-control. I just wish she had taken in account the long-term impact on our mental and physical health due to brain injuries and certain medications. Depression, irritability, poor judgement and memory problems that plague their inner life and thoughts. Let alone the long term effects of childhood sexual abuse or lack of good nutrition, wartime trauma and lack of educational opportunities. Lets not forget the prenatal influences of a mother’s poor diet, alcohol intake and or medications–on the child’s mental and physical health.

I just wish the EGW did not speak in such absolute terms about the “vacillating person” that “will be weighed in the balances and found wanting” by God." When the brain, from which character is developed, is flawed (broken) or depressed–how can we expect anything other then flawed behavior? I wonder how the mental health of Venezuela children will ever measure up to the “purity of life” EGW spoke of?


(Frank Peacham) #71

So you see that the entire world will be in only two ideological camps–sanctified absolute trust in God or hardened hearts against God.

I wonder how this theology fits into the thousands of broken societies in Africa, Asia and Muslim or war torn countries?

Reading current and past history, it seems to me, that the near majority 99.9% of human societies are not concerned about what day to worship. With most it is day to day survival amids abuse, neglect, gang influence, employment, marriage difficulties, landlord demands, poor health care support, cultural religions, political complications, depression, alcoholism in the family, broken dreams, overweight or unweight influences and unanswered prayers.


#72

Well put Frank. What is most concerning is the eisegesis used by Adventists in order to perpetuate the Ellen lens. The following passage seems to be the antithesis of the IJ doctrine highlighted by the lack of any “assurance”…
Hebrews 10:19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith…


(b l d) #73

All are accountable for their actions while in this world upon probation. All have power to control their actions if they will
Frankpeachamvt:
This EGW statement is a strong inducement toward self-control. I just wish she had taken in account the long-term impact on our mental and physical health due to brain injuries and certain medications. Depression, irritability, poor judgement and memory problems that plague their inner life and thoughts. Let alone the long term effects of childhood sexual abuse or lack of good nutrition, wartime trauma and lack of educational opportunities. Lets not forget the prenatal influences of a mother’s poor diet, alcohol intake and or medications–on the child’s mental and physical health.

7thdayissabbath: It is because of sin these issues you have listed are happening, The world was in bad shape in Noah’s day and is no different right before Christ comes.

{Ms24-1891.44) In the days of Noah the overwhelming majority was opposed to the truth and enamored with a tissue of falsehoods. The land was filled with violence. War, crime, murder was the order of the day. Just so will it be before Christ’s second coming. The great multitude will be without Christ and without hope.

{AH 329.1} Ignorance, pleasure loving, and sinful habits, corrupting soul, body, and spirit, make the world full of moral leprosy; a deadly moral malaria is destroying thousands and tens of thousands. What shall be done to save our youth? We can do little, but God lives and reigns, and He can do much.

{CE 10.2} Disease has been transmitted from parents to children from generation to generation. Infants in their cradle are miserably afflicted because of the sins of their parents, which have lessened their vital force. Their wrong habits of eating and dressing, and their general dissipation, are transmitted as an inheritance to their children. Many are born insane, deformed, blind, deaf, and a very large class deficient in intellect. The strange absence of principle which characterizes this generation, in disregarding the laws of life and health, is astonishing. Ignorance prevails upon this subject, while light is shining all around them. With the majority, their principal anxiety is, What shall I eat? what shall I drink? and wherewithal shall I be clothed? Notwithstanding all that is said and written in regard to how we should treat our bodies, appetite is the great law which governs men and women generally.

Ecclesiastes 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

And so it goes, from one generation to the next and so on and so on…But…There will be a group of people who will have the perfect character of Christ reproduced in them (144,000) These will not taste death.


#74

Where to begin… @7thdayissabbath , to state that all are accountable… well yea everyone has to answer for themselves. And yes, it is because of SIN … AND the choices we make… how many perfect people were present before, during and after the flood?.. Um… wasnt Noah… I digress.

Your ignorance and disease quotes (without context all of them btw). are making what point… that we know that sin exists in the world… that’s a given.

So from that desert of “lack of assurance” in those quotes… what inference am I to make regarding your “these will not taste death”… .those that have the knowledge of sin?

The premise that “perfection” being a state that we “achieve” vs “receive”… is the problem “with the patched together EGW quotes”…

Christ’s robe of righteousness cover’s us… we dont “stand without a mediator” to earn salvation… I would prefer to “stand WITH the mediator”… and just so you DONT miss the point… the mediator “of the new covenant”… without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins…

How about “perfected grace in us”…

with kind regards,


(Elmer Cupino) #75

I’m thrilled at how you see the horizon. Did you learn this while in seminary and pastoring or did you acquire this after being exposed to your current job as a teacher of disruptive children and adolescents?

I’m sure Dr Tichy would appreciate this too. @GeorgeTichy


(Frank Peacham) #76

According to EGW you are correct. God is waiting and waiting for us humans to overcome all and every sin. We SDA’s have a long list of sins to overcome, that previous generations have not been required. Thus it is harder for SDA’s to achieve victory over sin. I think of a few that EGW has mentioned that should concern those of us who desire perfection:

“Excessive indulgence in eating, drinking, sleeping, or seeing, is sin…Overeating is the sin of this age.” 1892
[Note: any person that is overweight due to over “indulgence” in food is sinning]

“The indulgence of unnatural appetite, whether for tea, coffee, tobacco, or liquor, is intemperance, and is at war with the laws of life and health. By using these forbidden articles, a condition of things is created in the system which the Creator never designed. This indulgence in any of the members of the human family is sin.” 1899
[Note: Any member that goes in Starbucks is violating the laws of life and health.]

“Those who make a practice of taking drugs sin against their intelligence and endanger their whole afterlife.”

And there are at least 50 more injunctions that EGW has added to the level of perfection that is required. The bar of requirements is set very high for those who achieve final perfection.


#78

Thank Goodness she didn’t include hot chocolate!


(Cfowler) #79

What the heck is “seeing” all about? This takes the cake! Oops, cake is probably a sin too.:rofl:

“Oh you foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you?”


(Cfowler) #80

And, let’s not forget the prohibitions against sinful activities like…checkers, chess, dancing, jewelry, cricket, photographs, reading Uncle Tom’s Cabin (and others), picnics. I’m sure there are many more!

She was shown these things by “her Guide” and “her Instructor”. Does anyone else find this troubling?


#81

Sounds like the pharisees 2.0


#82

I almost choked on my Chick-fil-A sandwhich :smiley: