End-Time Events and the Last Generation: An Interview with Dr. George Knight

(Kade Wilkinson) #103

Was this friend a former SDA?

Two things have surprised me about the people I’ve met in the Orthodox church:

-The number of former SDA (I was told as a child that SDA never convert to anything else, but including us, there are three families of converts from SDAism in my parish)
-The number of former Protestant clergy. I can think of 4 former Protestant clergy in my parish that converted, despite it meaning losing their congregations and jobs. All are ordinary laymen in the Orthodox Church now.

(Cfowler) #104

I knew she would have more admonitions to throw at us!:roll_eyes:

Actually, haarpa was the one thinking that she hadn’t mentioned hot chocolate…I asked if she (haarpa) would drink it anyway (I hope so).

I’m an avid coffee drinker…hot or cold!:slightly_smiling_face:

(Kevin H) #105

Didn’t Jesus say something about new wine in old wineskins? I’m afraid that you are stuck in the old wineskins of Adventist tradition, reading Mrs. White via vis the so called “Historic Adventists” and assuming that they must be correct, and probably reading Paul via-vis the ideas of 135 AD, St. Augustine and the issues of the 1500s as has become Christian tradition and a part of our wider culture. Please allow me the chance to offer new wine skins, and see if we can actually get back to what Mrs. White was trying to tell us.

Although Mrs. White did see and use Sabbath-Sunday as a specific application, she moved beyond the application to a principle. The principle is liberty of conscience. The freedom to worship according to the dictates of your conscience.

Mrs. White says that Sabbath/Sunday issues will play a part in bringing the test to the CHRISTIAN world. indicating that the same principle but in different tests will come to the rest of the world.

We have the method of God: Self sacrificing love, freedom to follow the dictates of your conscience, to share evidence but not force your views on others, and to go towards loving the world as Jesus has loved it and building supportive relationships. And the methods of Satan of thinking we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world and to try to win people over with flattery and rewarding to control, or by complaining, criticizing, blaming, nagging, threatening and punishing. The issue is will you respect others enough to allow them the freedom to follow their conscience, or will you use external control psychology to make them do what you want.

Mrs. White starts with Sunday laws, but also moves away from them to phrases about laws that do not allow for our freedom of conscience. We read into her other phrases the idea of “Sunday Laws” and thus adds to our traditions instead of what she actually says. Your last paragraph answers your first paragraph. For them the issues are not going to be over a day, but other principles over following God according to our understanding, or if we will either compromise with our conscience or want to force others to compromise with their conscience. Once again the events and the ways they can be applied will again push people into the two groups of either trusting fulling in what or who ever is out there, or compromising to fit in.

(dale) #106

There is a problem with that statement. In Hebrews 11, Paul discusses faith and people who were recognized because of their great faith. Hebrews 11:7-8 KJV
[7] By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, g prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. [8] By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither h he went. …
Hebrews 11:23-31 KJV
[23] By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper r child; and they were not afraid of the king’s commandment. [24] By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter; [25] Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; [26] Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. [27] By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. [28] Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them. [29] By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land : which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned. [30] By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days. [31] By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace. …
If you examine this chapter you will see actions tied to faith. Noah was saved because of his faith. We also know that because of that faith he built the ark. When you believe what God says it changes what you do. Hebrews 11 is a perfect example of the works that are produced by faith. Everyone loves to quote Ephesians 2:8,9 but the completely ignore verse 10 which completes the idea. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works. It is plain. The grace by which we are saved also transforms us. It comes along with grace. The transformation cannot be separated from it.

The fruit of Galatians 5:22-23 KJV
[22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, p goodness, faith, q [23] Meekness, temperance: r against such there is no law. …
These are things that you do. Look at what Jesus says about love.
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
If the Holy Spirit is placing love in your heart as a fruit, what is that love going to do? Keep the commandments. And why wouldn’t anyone not want to keep the commandments? Think about it. One sin cost Jesus his life. One sin. It was so reprerehensible to him, and his law was so unchanging that the only way that God could satisfy the claims of his law and save man was to give up his life. If you love someone you will do things that they find pleasing as mich as you can because you love them. Now when the Holy Spirit places the love of God in your heart, are you trying to tell me that between the father son and the Holy Spirit that they can’t keep someone from sinning? It’s essentially saying that the devil is more powerful than God.

Also take these words from Jesus from long after Paul was dead. Revelation 22:12-16 KJV
[12] And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. [13] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. [14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. [15] For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. [16] I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. …

(dale) #107

Do you reject the antitypical sacrifice too? Because the antitypical sacrifice was the means by which Christ entered into the antitypical sanctuary after his ascension. The two are tied together. Read Hebrews Paul makes it clear about christ’s Work.

(Elmer Cupino) #108

Which means you are familiar with the criteria by which God judges our minds and life. You certainly are privileged.

(Kim Green) #109

Yes, was born into Adventism…but became an LDS later. This is the church that he attends: http://www.holytrinitysantafe.org/our-parish/introduction/

I attended 2 services there and met others who converted from other denoms. In fact, many of the congregation was from another protestant church that did not survive in the area and then converted to the Orthodox faith. I talked with one older woman who said that she had been formerly an atheist. I would have liked to have heard her conversion experience but it wasn’t the right social occasion to do so. I would say that most of the church membership were formerly not Orthodox.

(Kade Wilkinson) #110


He was quoting me there.

(Kade Wilkinson) #111

I checked out the website, and noticed that they are also in the Antiochian Archdiocese. Our Archdiocese is about 70% American converts and 30% cradle Orthodox from the Middle East. Of course, we now are starting to have American cradle Orthodox who are the children of converts, such as my daughter.

(Kim Green) #112

I noticed the same there as well…I think that from observing the church that most of their growth may come from within it. Home grown.

(George Tichy) #113

Man, this is discouraging! The LGTarians must work harder… :wink:

(George Tichy) #114

I bet she meant “cold tea,” not hot. And I am glad she did not include ROMA…

(George Tichy) #115

I guess it’s a typo.It must have been “seeking.” Only for women, seeking ordination… SIN! :innocent:

(Frank Peacham) #116

Thank you for your explanation. Framing the Sabbath-Sunday issue into a “liberty of Conscience” test I think is on track to the proper meaning of this issue as EGW saw it.

What leaves me in confusion is historical evidence proves that liberty of conscience was never a test in Biblical times. God demanded the Hebrews to not worship other gods in the 10 commandments, or he will punish them to the 3rd & 4th generations. When Israel was punished by invading Babylon, thousands lost their lives or lived in slavery because they practiced liberty of conscience (worshiped other God’s). Granting liberty of Conscience to Israel was never part of God’s plan.

Luther, the reformer, had no respect for believers who wished to practice adult baptism or regard the communion cup as purely ceremonial. Calvin would not tolerate any practice he perceived contrary to his teaching in the Institute. All the reformers would be stunned at the idea of liberty of conscience.

There is no religious freedom in the SDA church. For example if a member does not hold to EGW as an inspired prophet as a conscience issue, depending on how vocal they are, they will be disfellowshipped.

It was from the Enlightenment, mostly atheist, and Jefferson that religious freedom became a bedrock truth.

Conclusion: I ask myself why it Liberty of Conscience a global final test when this concept does not originate from Scripture history? Second, why is one condemned if they use their liberty of conscience to keep Sunday in honor of the resurrection? Third, on the scale of good deeds that create peaceful and happy human societies–which is greater? To go to church on Sabbath or practice compassion, love and adopting the ethics of the Sermon on the Mount?

(Frank Peacham) #117

No this is what the text says “seeing.” I wonder if this might be in reference to observing things one should not see. Perhaps it was pleasure travel in which one spends to much time in nature and not enough on Scripture. Worse of all maybe EGW had in mind drawings or pictures that would arouse the passions the youth. Young man would be better close their eyes rather to see unvaled female forms as they change their clothes in the one room cottages so common in country life.


Time and place the last time that happened? Anyone?

(Kevin H) #119

Excellent post Frank. I have to go to work now, but I would like to build on to this.

(Kevin H) #120

What is sad here is that Mrs. White wrote that belief in her works should not be a test of fellowship.

(b l d) #121

Thank you Frank_merendino…
I choose to believe EGW was inspired by the Holy Spirit just like the prophets in the bible, so the things she wrote and expanded on about these subjects (Moses, Enoch, Noah) I believe.

spiritual things are spiritually discerned

(Frankmer7) #122

One can’t make the bible say what it is not saying, regardless of whatever one thinks of an inspired source. That’s using an argument that appeals to authority. It holds no logical substance.