Evil: Ancient and Modern


And, most importantly, I think, Hanz is not North American or British, with all the nauseating, unconscious, horribly damaging baggage that come with that, e.g., Manifest Destiny (which Ellen White was not immune to), The White Man’s Burden, British Israelism, etc.

The White Man’s Burden

Take up the White Man’s burden–
Send forth the best ye breed–
Go bind your sons to exile
To serve your captives’ need;
To wait in heavy harness,
On fluttered folk and wild–
Your new-caught, sullen peoples,
Half-devil and half-child.

Take up the White Man’s burden–
In patience to abide,
To veil the threat of terror
And check the show of pride;
By open speech and simple,
An hundred times made plain
To seek another’s profit,
And work another’s gain.

Take up the White Man’s burden–
The savage wars of peace–
Fill full the mouth of Famine
And bid the sickness cease;
And when your goal is nearest
The end for others sought,
Watch sloth and heathen Folly
Bring all your hopes to nought.

Take up the White Man’s burden–
No tawdry rule of kings,
But toil of serf and sweeper–
The tale of common things.
The ports ye shall not enter,
The roads ye shall not tread,
Go mark them with your living,
And mark them with your dead.

Take up the White Man’s burden–
And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better,
The hate of those ye guard–
The cry of hosts ye humour
(Ah, slowly!) toward the light:–
“Why brought he us from bondage,
Our loved Egyptian night?”

Take up the White Man’s burden–
Ye dare not stoop to less–
Nor call too loud on Freedom
To cloke your weariness;
By all ye cry or whisper,
By all ye leave or do,
The silent, sullen peoples
Shall weigh your gods and you.

Take up the White Man’s burden–
Have done with childish days–
The lightly proferred laurel,
The easy, ungrudged praise.
Comes now, to search your manhood
Through all the thankless years
Cold, edged with dear-bought wisdom,
The judgment of your peers!

British hymn, Jerusalem

It could be a very good development that Adventism is becoming de-centered from North America.

Go Hanz! Change comes from the fringe; open-source innovation!


Cassie, I think you are much more optimistic about Adventism than I am.

Proclaiming the imminent return of Christ constantly for almost 175 years can’t be good for a prophetic movement’s credibility.

Hence, I try to provide thoughts about and links to other views, which I believe embrace more of Scripture and in different (and I believe profound) ways.
If I read you correctly, you try to do the same thing.

I am slightly familiar with St. John of the Cross and the trials of his life but confess that at this point his writings are still on my ‘to read’ list.



Please notice that I make an (obviously not clear enough) distinction between “Adventism” and “a prophetic movement.”

Adventism is doomed. My opinion.

Racism alone could sink it. My opinion.

The Great Advent Movement…well…you can’t rope the Wind!



As for “reading lists,” St. John of the Cross, etc., it is enough to sorta/kinda get my drift that we have many slippery ways we fool ourselves.

I certainly do, anyway.


My conservative SDA 80-year-old ex-hubby and I have been talking a lot about The Elijah Message, and The Early Rain and The Latter Rain lately, and I’ve also been talking about it with an ex-SDA visionary friend, Dave.

Ex-hubby is from a tiny rural town in Nebraska, and he talks about winter wheat and early and later rain, and VERNALIZATION.

In any case, the Bible normalizes the concept of “my lord delayeth his coming.”

God isn’t looking for “credibility,” or “vindication,” IMHO, He is patiently looking for a Harvest.

Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord.

Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.

Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

—James 5


Vernalization: Barley Harvest People

Yoreh and Malkosh

Even though it is fairly late in the year in terms of the Western calendar, the rains that begin in the Fall are known as the yoreh, or the early rains, since it is the start of the rainy season.

These early rains are reason to be glad after a hot, dry summer, and the ground can be broken up ready to work the fields.

Towards the springtime, around the time of Passover, Israel will have the latter rains, known as the malkosh, necessary for the ripening of the barley and grain.


PERFECTION: Barley, Type of the Perfect Sacrifice

Anyone with a nutritional science background can look at
the analysis of green barley leaves and be amazed at the
near-perfect balance among the nutrients.

But as a Christian, my desire was to understand the biochemical structure, and the
function of this food within the context of God’s overall design,
for only then would the essential purpose of its nearly perfect
configuration come into true perspective…

From the beginning of Israel’s history as a nation and right
down to the present day, barley is the sheaf used as the Offering
of the Firstfruits in the Feast of the Passover.

Of course, the basic requirements of an offering is that it be ‘perfect, without
spot or stain.’

Barley, due to its early maturation, is almost
completely free of the pets and infestations other crops are
plagued with. Thus, it is naturally perfect…"

Dr. Swope goes on to recount how she came to read
Lev.23:9-11 and then 1 Cor.15:20 and saw how Scripture links the
firstfruits, barley, with our saviour, Jesus Christ.

Then she realized that we as Christians are a “kind of firstfruits of all
He created” (James 1:18, NIV).

With all this in mind Dr. Swope started an in-depth study of the Feasts of Israel. Here in part
is what she wrote as we continue in her book.



It’s over…nobody wins. . . .

Court Documents: Shawnee Mission Health Interim CEO Feared Incarceration While at Previous Job

The Kansas City Star reported that the suspected unlawful activity involved 20 Adventist Health System hospitals including Park Ridge Health in North Carolina where Randolph was Chief Financial Officer when a lawsuit was filed against AHS by whistleblowers and federal investigators. The hospitals were accused of paying doctors inflated salaries and bonuses in exchange for patient referrals for expensive tests and procedures at AHS facilities.

AHS defended Randolph in comments to the Kansas City Star, saying that he had contributed significantly to reforms that had been instituted after the settlement. Melanie Lawhorn, a spokeswoman at the AHS corporate office called Randolph “a man of integrity and an extremely valued leader within Adventist Health System. Our organization believes he has and will continue to have a tremendous and positive impact on Shawnee Mission Health.”

The newspaper states that court documents show Randolph was aware that AHS was running an illegal scheme but neglected to report it to the federal government because the money that would need to be paid back would be “insane.” The lawsuit claims Randolph asked employees to cover the scheme up and “lose” internal documents.


I could go on. . . .

It is a Sisyphean task to try to “fix” Adventism. It can’t be done, in my opinion.

As Tennessee Ernie Ford sang in 1956,

…with one fist of iron,
and the other of steel,
if the right one don’t getcha,
then the left one will…

And as Kris Kristofferson sang,

…it’s over,
nobody wins…

Why We Will Aways Have Segregated Conferences
Why We Will Aways Have Segregated Conferences
  1. Evil exists: TRUE
  2. God is benevolent: TRUE
  3. God is omnipotent: TRUE
I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight.

These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.



He has made me glad!


Dr. Swope likens the three offerings/feasts to three classes of disciples.
But I have heard it explained this way:

-winnowed barley, the overcomers, those participating in the first resurrection, (‘the out-resurrection from the dead’ as Paul calls it in Phil 3:11), the one he is ‘striving to attain’, this ‘upward call of God’ is not about salvation but a position of authority in the coming kingdom (judgment given to them, reigning with Christ (‘receiving the crown of life’), or being a priest of God) as inheriting the kingdom or being a joint-heir with Christ implies a degree of ownership.

-threshed (pounded) wheat, the rest of the believers, will not be given immortality at the first resurrection but later after period of correction under overcomers (their kinsmen-redeemers under Christ).

-crushed grapes/olives, unbelievers (every knee will eventually bow and confess Jesus as Lord), later still (last crops harvested) but nevertheless necessary to complete the Lord’s table, longer time of chastisement/correction under kinsmen-redeemers, won’t be pretty (weeping and gnashing of teeth) but ultimately restorative.

Adventism is correct in saying there will be a judgment of believers at the end of this age based on our works (they call it the IJ). The problem is we think everything is about our own salvation; we can’t seem to look past that. But the issue in the IJ is NOT salvation (which is given by grace through faith) but to choose the overcomers through history who will take part in the first resurrection. They will have ‘the mind of Christ’ and thus be rewarded by helping bring the rest of humanity back to God in the coming age(s).

  1. Evil exists: TRUE
  2. God is benevolent: TRUE
  3. God is omnipotent: TRUE



Know what? That’s close enough for me! And you might be centered right over the target more than I (like to imagine I am).

Still working all this out internally, but your interpretation (maybe?) gets me to the same place as mine, and is elegant, if countercultural. Groovy! (I seem to have some Enneagram Eight traits—just an Old Hippy who don’t know what to do. :slight_smile: )

And I think one of my visionary friends, who, like me, believes in universal reconciliation, might really like your take. I’ve never been able to explain my “take” in a way that makes sense to anyone else, but he might like yours. He’s an engineer and likes things laid out logically, if not Theologically Correctly, according to the PTB.

And, in fact, fact several posts I’ve read from others today seem to be closing in on this thing, if I’m not mistaken.

(My ex-hubbie’s sermon this coming week is titled “The Convergence.” Not really sure where he’s going with it yet.)

Going to run what you said about the Feasts past another visionary friend who observes the Feasts, but vehemently doesn’t believe in universal reconciliation (or fairies). And maybe you don’t either?

May be a while before I return. Interesting—thanks!

Happy New Moon/New Beginnings! :new_moon: :smile:

(I try so hard to walk away from this place…your fault for hoovering me back in—got to blame someone. LOL).


Yes, yes, yes!!! Totally with you here!

If we can think up Restorative Justice, and Truth and Reconciliation, do we imagine God didn’t think of it before us?

How absurd!



I attended this lecture in 2015–so inspiring!


Somewhere I have a picture of my friend Ellen and me on either side of this fine woman.


@Cassie, can you elaborate on “universal reconciliation”?


While looking for the picture of my friend and me with Dr. Pumla Gobodo-Madikizela, I found (on an old phone) this pic I took in September 2015 in Tyler, Texas of Robert E. Lee High School students displaying the Confederate flag before the big game with rival Tyler school, John Tyler High:

This was going on in 1978, when we moved to Tyler.


Thank you for asking.

With fear and trembling, I will make a small start. Please read this post first:


This is not some “Mighty Truth” that should be urged on oppressed peoples who have have historically suffered grievous oppression, and see little light at the end of the tunnel at present, I fervently believe.

That could understandably be adding insult to eons of unhealed injury in their eyes.

No. I won’t do that.

They are hanging their hopes on God’s Ultimate Justice, and who can blame them?

But I do believe I see a light at the end of the tunnel for all of us, oppressed and oppressors.

The reason I favor this happening Premillennially comes from feelings too complex for my brain to translate at present.

Sorry for the non-answer, but give me a bit more time on this, please.

And let’s see what Dave has to say, also. If I understand him correctly, he sees this happening Postmillennially.

I certainly might be wrong in any of my present perceptions.

But I hope, in the meantime, all who are interested will meditate on the meaning of Restorative Justice.

My brain feels like it’s stuffed with cotton batting–need to take a break and do some grounding things.

Later. . . .


Is this basically universalism?


Universal Reconciliation is not a “received doctrine” for me or any of the several other Adventist-leaning people I know who inexplicably found ourselves “there” on our journeys.

Each of us arrived at it idiosyncratically, on essentially nonergodic paths, and therefore it’s hard to ‘splain, even to each other.

I don’t think it can or ever should be taught as some kind of received doctrine from the pulpit. It is “unpreachable,” as far as I can see.

It would doubtless cause endless controversy and confusion, to no good end.

Personally, I associate it with the 1888 Message, which I think is also unpreachable, and with The Elijah Message, which is also essentially unpreachable, in my view.

Adventists are often accused of being elitists, if not megalomaniacs, and this sounds suspiciously like “Remnant-of-the-Remnant-of-the-Remnant” elitism. Or what some are pleased to call “lunatic fringe.”

Hence, fear and trembling and hesitancy to say more—not because I will be considered a heretic (that’s the street where I live: “Nothing-To-Lose Street”), but because there’s no satisfactory way to talk about the inexpressible, and because I’m not in any sense “living it,” so…with no “living proof,” why talk about it, you know? So that’s why I keep telling myself: Just. Walk. Away.

With that disclaimer, here’s a wiki:


@Cassie, this concept is, no doubt, attractive given many things we know about God and His government principle of love. How does it, in your view, fit with judgment?


I appreciate your tenacity…I think…’scuse me a minute…[nervously bites nails]. . . . :cold_sweat:

First of all I’m not at all sure we have “many things we know about God and His government principle of love.” Surely history would have played out differently if we “knew” all those things?

Also, it’s a superhuman task to extract a God with a government principle of love from the Bible, and a lot easier to go on witch-burning hunts (literal or figurative) for that God, it seems to me.

As I recall, the Bible ends with “blood up to the horses’ bridles,” and “wrath poured out without mixture.”

Minds love concepts.

Nobody loves the Cross. Jesus didn’t, and we certainly don’t.

The Cross as a concept is insipid. The Cross as an ontological Reality is revolutionary.

I think I can’t say any more tonight, and I see Dave is replying. Good.