Fake or Fortune?

“Examine me, O Lord, and test me. Look closely into my heart and mind.” Psalm 26:2

It may surprise you, but many paintings are not what they seem to be. It is estimated that up to 40% of the art market is forged in some way, and that as much as 20% of paintings held by major American museums will be considered fakes 100 years from now. Recently, I watched an episode of the BBC art detective series Fake or Fortune. The program series finds lost treasures, conducts restoration projects, and searches for “sleepers:” paintings that are either unrecognized as painted by a master, or hide dark secrets.

This is a companion discussion topic for the original entry at https://spectrummagazine.org/article/2015/07/17/fake-or-fortune
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Please help me understand why “unfallen” angels need convincing that God is fair.


this is an excellent analogy…let’s hope we all turn out to be masterpieces…

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God doesn’t save master pieces. He saves sinners, He gave us a master piece. If we find no fault in Him we are Justified. Tom Z


I like the analogy regarding the Van Dyke.
Van Dyke painted the face it is True. BUT, he was confident that his apprentices had learned so much of his skill, that he allowed them to FINISH the painting.
Perhaps that is what the Holy Spirit does with us. Provides the SKILL to FINISH the painting of Jesus on the Canvas.
As the Apprentices became One with VanDyke, so perhaps we become one with the master painter, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

What if it is the “Sanctuary Doctrine” and 1844 that is the the fake and the fortune is that God loves and accepts us, as revealed in Jesus.


What do we do with this text discussing the New Jerusalem.

Revelation 21:22. I did not see a Temple in it. The Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the Temple of It.

John saw this in vision at around 90 to 100 A.D.
I do want to say this, I have no problem with the Book of Hebrews written probably some time prior to 70 A.D.


well, the bible says that a 3rd of the ‘unfallen’ angels were deceived by Satan, and so it makes sense that God had to work with the rest to show he is fair…

And just what is God’s argument with regard to his character?

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Read either Great Controversy or Patriarchs and Prophets. I can’t remember which chapter, but that subject is addressed. She does a good job of answering your question. Satan can use deceit; God cannot.

If this is an either/or, it is great to know one is not God.

Trust The Process.

Perfect angels in a perfect heaven lost some of their best friends to the rebellion. Does it seem reasonable that the angels would want to make sure that not even one being from planet earth with an unregenerate heart should be allowed into heaven to start the whole rebellion over again?

The enemy also charged God with creating the rebellion with His “rules of love.” At the tree in the garden Satan accused God of lying about death, and selfishness by keeping the best fruit for Himself. In the encounter in the first 2 chapters of Job, Satan accused God of bribing Job into obedience. This accusation was made in the presence of the Sons of God, and God allowed Satan to make it. This shows that God operates His universe with absolute clarity and openness so that any and all questions can be brought forth and examined by weight of evidence and outcome. All of God’s dealings are consistent with his character of love.

All of these accusations have been leveled at God and the angels have been watching the answers for millennia. How do we know angels are interested in the salvation of this planet? The sanctuary had angels woven into the veils as well as the two cherubim on the lid of the Ark of the Covenant. In Solomon’s temple, there were 2 additional extra large cherubim on either side of the Ark with hundreds of cherubim engraved in the walls of the Holy Place and Most Holy Place.


Even though we are sinners, if we confess our sins God treats us as if we had never sinned. He sees the potential to become like Christ and works to remove those qualities that are not Christlike, and instill in us the heart and mind of Jesus. We seem to be talking about “two sides of the same coin.”

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Nice twist to the analogy!

It is known that a number of the Great Painting Masters did collaborative work with their paintings. They did much of it, but their apprentices would also do detail work on some of them.

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Dennis Hollingsead,
I’m sure you would agree that our entire Christian experience here on earth is based on faith, according to the Bible. Faith seems to be mortar that binds all the various teachings we hold together and makes them work. Beyond that, the Bible defines sin, not only as “the transgression of the law”, but also any activity or belief that does not come from faith -“whatsoever is not of faith is sin” (Rom 14:23). The entire chapter of Hebrews 11 holds up men of faith, and how their lives were guided by faith …and then we have the Bible description of the just - “the just shall live by faith”.

The war in heaven seems to have been definitive, to the extent that a judgment was made, and some of the angels were kicked out of heaven, as it were. We have to assume those who remained were worthy of heaven because they retained their faith in God and His order of things. We are to look forward to the same definitive act at the end of time. There can be no doubt left in heaven that needs to be eradicated - neither in heaven or on earth, when God has made a declaration.

The idea that this whole exercise we call Christianity is about convincing the “good angels” that the “bad angels” were indeed bad; and that God can surely be trusted does not make sense. Even we, sinners, are asked to trust God, and have faith but the angels remaining in heaven aren’t that sure?

Faith means trust; and without it there can be no life “in Christ”. Without faith, the entire redemption story falls apart. Faith does not need proof, that God is just and good.


Dennis, you are making a case for the Council of Trent view. it is very unfortunate that Ellen White encouraged that view in her comments following the 1888 General Conference session. she is quoted as saying that the Three Angels messages were Righteousness by Faith. she should have used Justification by Faith. the First Angel was seen flying with the Everlasting Gospel. the finished work of Christ for our redemption. Went our name comes up in judgment how does one plead? Jesus’ blood and my achievements? of course not. it is all of Christ and none of self. certainly the Holy Spirit guides us into paths of righousness. the key text is found in Micah 6:8’ and repeated by Jesus in Matthew as He divides the sheep from the goats. If we trust in the saving Grace of the Cross we behave in gratitude and generosity. The judgment hour for each of us. Is --does Christ plead our case by citing our behavior or does He plead his blood? Tom Z


God only makes the best; what we do with our lives is dependent on many things: our birthplace, what we have been taught, where we choose to live and what and who we choose to believe. We cannot choose the most important event that ultimately shape our lives, but we like to think that we can.

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“The war in heaven” is a metaphor and not a reality as no one knows what occurs in heaven. John was not describing reality, if he had been, there would be “24 elders under the throne” streets of gold and gates of pearl. All is metaphor.

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Yes, Elaine, you and I may agree on that, but the entire SDA package is about vindicating God. If you accept the scenario that the angles need to be convinced about God’s justice, it makes the entire Christian experience about justifying God to the universe, rather than justifying sinners through Christ. Nowhere in the Bible does it even intimate that. It comes out of left field; and is needed to back up the investigative judgment, which in turn, backs ups 1844 (a colossal mistake which we celebrate each year).