From Heaven or from Men?

That was your first mistake, marianne…asking Kevin a question like that to which he could never answer in an affirmative. lol


YES!!! BOTH pictures are wonderful!
Thank You!

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I don’t understand the allusion to Robert Folkenberg.

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Maybe Kevin was saying that the Communist Chinese Church has No Representation in the General Conference Offices, so therefore there IS No SDA Chinese Mainland Church.
And, of course, there are no men preachers. Only MEN are allowed offices in Silver Springs.
Perhaps Kevin, after all, WAS telling the Truth.



Well, I have read some very original and insightful arguments in favor of WO from some of our male pastors and theologians, so many of them are not average!


Well, if that is the way to know whether God given authority is self evident, why did not Jesus ordain some women to go out and spread the gospel? He didn’t do it. Weren’t the gifts of Mary Mag. evident to him? Didn’t he “choose” her to go to the disciples and tell them of the resurrection? So, why do we have no ordination ceremony, or at least some sort of overt command setting her apart? Would have put the whole problem to bed.

Hmmm… Is this a call to independence from the GC?

I do not agree with many of the sentiments expressed above. Nor the put down on the Advocate folk. They have a point, and I don’t think Mr. Seibold is any more willing to see theirs, than they are to see his. But with a female prophet that was recognized by her gift, I think we have to recognize that some women among us have certain gifts as well.

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Jesus and John the Baptist.

Jesus did not say what he said to be cunning, though it was. Nor to put the delegation not a quandary.

Rather he wanted then to recognize John’s calling. If they had, then they would have recognized his as well. He was giving them an opportunity to consider the lesser man, the easier man before the greater. If they had recognized John, the for runner, then they could have recognized Jesus, as John testified of him. John was sent to prepare the way. If only they had been willing to listen.

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I agree Winona! I witnessed that ordination ceremony where a mother helped ordain her son. That would be a great example.


Great article Loren! Indeed may the Lord give His Church discernment to acknowledge the divine gifts God has given his church!

My thoughts turn to how Adventists on all sides of this issue will react after the vote in San Antonio!

How will Adventists prevent an outbreak of recriminations, innuendo and suspicion?! How will we deal with those who have differed from us on this issue?

The task of building unity will remain necessary whatever the vote. To my mind, the best way to promote such unity on this issue is to help Adventists in all quarters of the globe to think about these issues in relationship to their own situations.

This is why I believe that it was self defeating for the General Conference to sit on their hands in the last 12 months. They have not shared the materials generated during TOSC, or summary’s of the same to any meaningful extent. (Please remember that though the Internet exists in most parts of the world, the infrastructure is so poor that few would use it to access material of this nature). Adventists in every quarter of the globe and especially Adventist leaders and San Antonio delegates in particular need to have wrestled with the issues



Perhaps one big problem is that we Adventists often have a vision of one size fits all as far as ordination is concerned.

We expect all who are ordained to have come up through the ranks of pastor/ evangelist. A very few among us were ordained because they were missionary teachers or doctors who were imagined to require some greater ability to be leading functionaries within the denomination.

Over many years I have presented and promoted a model of ordination in which people - whether elders, deacons, deaconesses, local pastors, specialist resource personnel, administrators, teachers, professors, institutional heads are set apart for their particular duties with a rite of blessing and consecration.


Yes, that Man being Jesus!


Jesus/God always works with people where they are and tries to bring them a little higher. In that culture a woman disciple would not have been recognized or respected. Yet He did allow women to be his followers, and by the time Paul came along, he was happy to include women among his helpers. By our time, the Holy Spirit has brought us much farther along the road to respecting equality and we (most of us) are ready to accept and bless women in ministry.


The proposition of role equality is not found in the Bible. It is a western cultural concept, not a Biblical one. To give it the status of a working of the Holy Spirit is to put Western culture, feministic thinking above that of the Bible. Now, I think WO is allowed because God has not forbidden it. But to make it a work of the Holy Spirit is to go beyond God’s willingness to do as we wish.

That being said, God did choose Ellen. If one argues from that choice, then one also has to accept her as a real prophet, not a mere influence among many.

Bravo, Loren Seibold.


How about a portrait of a female pastor performing a gay wedding?

Now we’re talkin’ progress!!

That’s actually a really good idea.

Fact of the matter is there are no Chinese SDA pastors, male or female, residing in the mainland who hold a ministerial credential (not even a missionary credential) from the Chinese Union Mission.

Elder Folkenberg was chairman of the nominating committee. Early first Friday it was clear Elder N C Wilson would not be re-nominated. Friday mid-day the nominating committee had a president to bring to the floor … until the candidate declined 90 minutes later, before being brought to the delegates for a vote. By supper time Elder Folkenberg was the new G C President. He reported he had “15 minutes” to consider his name being recommended for what is traditionally and was certain confirmation.


A couple of thoughts. First, if role equality is not found in the Bible, maybe that is a Middle Eastern cultural concept, which can still be seen today in very marked fashion. Just read Genesis 30. It screams of cultural influences among the mothers of Israel.

Second, I would be most reticent to assuredly state that the calling of women to be ordained pastors cannot be the work of the Holy Spirit. That is limiting God. You have already stated that God called a woman to be a prophet, but are you saying that you know he would not likewise call a woman to be an ordained leader in our midst?


@petersomerset, it seems to me this could have been handled in such a way that it would have been win-win. Instead, it has one of two outcomes. Either WO loses, in which case the NAD and Europe will ignore it, or it will win and there will be a subset of deeply embittered people who are against it. I would even speculate that a win (unlikely as that appears) could create schisms.