From Heaven or from Men?

Really? In what respect did the chief priests and elders have authority over who gets to be a prophet? Where do you find that they were ever thus empowered, much less still in Jesus’ day? Find me one example of a prophet that didn’t get to be a prophet until the chief priests gave him credentials. Jesus repeatedly said they were the poorest examples of godliness: painted tombs. These are the people who got to issue prophetic credentials? Jesus said that they just persecuted the prophets who had been sent to them. This is a bizarre statement.


I confess I find precedents and patterns from the Old Testament not to be a guide for today. The New Testament makes that pretty clear on many occasions. So I have trouble with extrapolating from the Old Testament to the New, as you suggest by saying:

That feels like a leap of logic to me if Old Testament patterns and precedents are no longer applicable.

So what I hear you saying is that some bunch of people need to decide whether God would call a woman, and if those folks vote that he would not do such a thing, then God is blocked from interacting with a woman and calling her to his service in any way he chooses. Is that right?


What is up there now is terrific. It embodies a broad-based double notion of authority and resistance. Great.

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If they got attention, would that keep them from dying? What is causing the dying? I have seen congregation size reduce greatly for churches that had pastors.

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Jesus never ordained a woman nor did Paul. Their example, and a lack of a command to do it.

For me, a description of what was done then is not prescriptive for all times. I don’t presume that because something was done one way 2,000 years ago means it reflects divine will for all times and circumstances. Moral issues excluded.


Seems like the pickin’s been good this year!

A more honest portrayal:

Note: These pics/screenshots have been gleaned from the Web, without attribution. Please verify.

Trust The Process.

  1. When they came to question him, Jesus did not say they were out of bounds to evaluate him. In fact he answered their question. With another question, yes, but he did not send them packing.
  2. See Deut 18:17-22

Sure, but you are doing it on your own then, without authority. Jesus did not say we couldn’t, so sure. But again it is a choice rather than a moral obligation.

I understand that. I happen to believe that accepting discrimination anywhere is indefensible. I was curious about it being sold. Who is selling it and for what. I am not understanding the transaction.

People choose which traditions they wish to continue. All traditions from the same era would be rather too much: polygamy or the law to cohabit with your childless brother’s widow.


If the government jailed all our American SDA administration and pastors would that preclude being able to have an Adventist church? Would that also be true in other countries at odds with their governments? Didn’t China have delegates seated at the last GC in Atlanta? Did the church in the South Pacific stop existing during WWII because the mission leaders all left?

Are we adhering to some sort of apostolic/pastoral succession? @kevindpaulson @phil @tjzwemer @hopeful @marianne_faust @kennlutz @lorenseibold @elmer_cupino


Allen that is precisely what we are saying about WO.


Allen, what do you do with"they two shall be one flesh? N Gal. 2:28? N Joel 2/Acts 2? Looking at these I see equal in Eden, equal at the cross, n equal in the last days.


Thank you for this very thoughtful article on this most aggravating of issues in our church! You nailed it.


So you don’t accept Ellen as an ordained minister even though she was voted for and had the papers And you don’t accept the men and women in China because although they had the ceremony by ordained ministers, they haven’t been voted on by their unions. And you don’t accept the women in the PUC n CUC n Netherlands who have both certificates and ceremonies. Ellen’s statement that God Himself ordained her is not accepted either.

OK “Thomas”, what would you have to see to believe that God is sending us both men and women?



Who was it who refused?

What do you do with I Cor 11:3 and following? Sounds like the fall changed some things.

Didn’t you say there was nothing NOTHING in the Bible about men and women equality? I have listed three. God’s ideal in Eden ( which I thought we were trying to go back to) is but the first of the three mentioned that shows your statement inaccurate . Many more examples could be given but those show God’s view at beginning, middle, and end.


Very profound observation. We now know there are those who would rather “show” their religion and those who would rather “live” their religion.

Very telling.