GC Addresses Racism in New Voted Statement

Spectrum Website
49

Thanks.

When I read the KKK statement, it occurred to me that these were values with which most of the white people I’d met, or that I’d heard speak, or express their views, would probably agree.

That was the impression I had at the time.

That is, I don’t think they would have agreed with the specific rhetoric, and its coarseness. Also, again, I did not retain the document, so I could maintain an ongoing, metrical comparison of its views to those of 21st century soccer moms.

But I recall, at the time, having this insight: That “most average white people, it seems, would support this statement, said a nicer way.”

Such a conclusion floats at least two other observations.

One I’ve already shared: My belief that racism is a continuum between white people; it is not “siloed”; something done by “ignorant,” “stupid,” “uneducated,” or other kinds of defective white people, but, in fact, it is a shared effort.

This is a conclusion that has only sharpened as my other verdicts have been whetted; e.g., that racism is white supremacy, and that the minimum requirement for one to be a white supremacist is that one be white.

To clarify, this does not mean that if you’re white, you are a racist. But it does mean that, if you are a racist, you are white.

The second finding is the invisibility of racists. We speak about “the KKK” and “soccer moms” as though these are discrete sets. But they aren’t. For example, anyone whose studied the role women have historically played in ardently white supremacist movements knows this.

However, “ardently white supremacist movements” are not the extent of racism. Many Black people have also conducted a form of this research. They do this every time they realize that someone white, whom they originally held in esteem, they now strongly suspect to be racist.

It’s not offensive to me, if that’s what you mean.

I just don’t think that any manner by which non-white people respond to racism is more grotesque, or reprobate, than racism. It’s like farting in a hurricane.

I think that you’ve said this, and made it clear.

I think soccer moms are, to some degree, generalizable, however. First, they’re all “soccer moms.” That’s a generalization.

This concern came up early in my conversations with @Arkdrey. I retorted that Black people were less concerned with how white people think than with how they function.

He didn’t like this, but I like it a lot. Not only does it get to what we can observe and measure, but it leaves issues like “thoughts” to those who can read them.

One of the outcomes of me speaking about racism the way I do is that many white people, here, have:

  1. berated me, personally, both directly and indirectly

  2. criticized and derided my ideas, vaguely, but not specifically

  3. threatened to leave the Spectrum fora

  4. charged me with making statements about white people that I’ve never made; one being, specifically, that “all white people are racists”

  5. tried to get me banished from the forum

  6. joked with each other about my counter-racism efforts and goals

  7. criticized the format of my posts as “too long,” “boring,” etc.

  8. refused to respond to my questions or posts

  9. told me that I was ruining Spectrum’s discussions on racism, and that, as a result of my posts, soon the fora would be empty, and I would be “talking to myself”

  10. engaged in specifically off-topic dialogues, as a way of “running out the clock” on posted racism commentaries

Though not exhaustive, these are all textbook expressions of white fragility; the phenomenon that @mark_carr, Andy Lampkin, @Carmen, @TheAdventistPodcast, Bonnie Dwyer, Alisa Williams, and their attendees will be discussing on Friday, September 25, 2020 at 10 am PT, plug plug. (See this page for more details.)

But because I was doing this kind of work long before Robin DiAngelo was, these reactions, to me, are just what white people mostly do when you talk about racism in a way that doesn’t flatter them. I’ve seen it a million times. None of it is novel. At all.

What I’m saying should address both what you’ve said, and what @Timo said in his subsequent comment to you; the one where I am designated “the poster.” :thinking:

Specifically, @Timo: The statements are intentional, of course. The “provocation,” though, you might call a reaction that I expect, due to “the extant social arrangement,” aka racism; one from which I do not back away, given the gravity of the issue.

A mentor of mine has said that, “You can’t talk about racism without doing at least two things, right off: Embarrassing Black people, and offending white people. You can’t do it…if you’re going to tell the truth.”

His statement corresponds with my experience.

HA

50

The differentiation between thinking and functioning is very interesting. I have to think more about that. We cannot know how a person thinks, but we can observe how they function in the system. It doesn’t matter if their actions are conscious or unconscious. Everyone is responsible for their actions.

What I noticed: When we were talking about soccer moms, we weren’t talking about all of them everywhere, but only about the once you know. That’s what you seem to imply. We cannot know how the whole group of soccer moms functions because we don’t have the ability to observe them all. You, however, can observe how those you met function because that is an observable amount of persons.

Based on these steps, I am not able to know how whole groups of people think or function. I can only observe a certain amount of them and can see how they function. This observation doesn’t happen from a neutral point of view. Each one of us is influenced by history, background, experience, position in the system etc. My baggage influences my observation. Your baggage influences your observation. We have to keep this in mind.

I agree with you that I (and actually we both) am not able to know how even an observable amount of persons really thinks 100 % (conscious, unconscious) because I am not God. I can observe hints about their thinking, and when I would be psychologically trained I could observe even hints about their subconsciousness up to a certain degree.

Interesting stuff. Thanks.

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51

Why don’t you simply ask Harry (@Harry_Allen) next time instead of me? I said it once regarding talking about you and I say it here again regarding talking about Harry: I don’t prefer to talk about Spectrumites, but to them. Please understand this. Thanks, Timo. (Btw, your questions have already been addressed; see above.)

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It’s not about an individual, but a concept, and a flawed and false one, which a number of proponents post here. I’m unconcerned with the individuals.

53

I see. Sorry.

That’s why we discuss things, different people with different contributions. I for myself want to understand the concept or concepts and want to look at the concept or concepts from different angles. I want to be on a journey to learn, to connect, to explore the world, to find my place in it, to change myself, to contribute to justice. I need many contributions for this journey. That’s why I don’t want you or anybody else, and especially not the victims of racism, to feel muted.

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54

When I said…

…I wasn’t talking about soccer moms “I know.”

I’m talking about “soccer moms” as a class. I’m not talking about them individually, their individual thoughts, or even their group thoughts. I’m generalizing, because I’m not talking about any of them. I’m talking about them as abstractions.

You say, “We cannot know how the whole group of soccer moms functions because we don’t have the ability to observe them all.”

What I’m saying is that, depending on what one is forecasting, one may not need to do so, give the law of averages.

When I speak of “what white people will do,” I do so in a general way, based on my experience, having interacted with a fairly wide set of white people during my lifetime, as well as having observed them, both closely and at a distance.

The same is true re: Black people, with the added fact that I am a Black person.

So, I’m generalizing. Generalizing has the powers, and limits. I know that when I am doing it.

When I talk about racism this way with white people, what tends to happen is what has happened; e.g., hostility. I’m generalizing.

I will add, here: One of the things mass marketers know, but that the general public does not seem to understand, is that human beings are fairly predictable. Most of us take a stance for our individuality, but this “individuality” is usually of a certain kind, within a certain set of behaviors.

If you haven’t, you should probably read the famed, 2012 New York Times article, “How Companies Learn Your Secrets.”

White people tend not to agree that racism is white supremacy when a Black person says it. I don’t need to speak to every white person to know that this is true. I just need to speak to a certain number of them. This is how polling works, for example.

White people do not act in a way that eliminates racism. I know that, because racism is white supremacy, and racism exists.

What “baggage” are you suggesting is at work, here, please, in these observations?

This is why I tend to avoid talking about the thoughts of other people, even though, here, I’m not typically accredited the same courtesy.

Thank you.

HA

55

@Timo:

What is the “flawed and false” “concept” of which you speak, “which a number of proponents post here”?

Also, who has posted it, and when?

I’d like to know. Perhaps @Kate would, also.

HA

56

Oh, you talked about abstractions. Now I get it. There is a nuance between abstractions and generalizations. And you are aware of the power and limits of abstractions.

Thank you for the article. I will read it.

Based on the just now defined terminology I also used an abstraction. “Baggage” in the sense every person has; I defined it as e.g. “history, background, experience, position in the system…”. Baggage is an unbiased term for me. It includes all what may influence or shape a person and therefore their perception and the way they observe the world.

Your goal was not to observe for the sake of observing, but to see how an abstract group functions in a racist system. This includes more than just agreeing or not agreeing to a statement as in your first example (= a certain number of white people don’t agree that racism is white supremacy when a Black person says it). Your observation, therefore, has to be evaluated so that it informs you about the groups functioning in the system. Your research question is how do they function and not only do they agree to your definition of racism.

At the beginning, you observe. From your point as everyone would. In order that your observation correctly informs you about the functioning of the group, you have to consider more things than just the end result (= group doesn’t agree to a certain definition of a Black person).

You have to consider nuances (body language etc.), when was the question asked, to whom, were there follow up questions, etc. to verify your observation. The observer can become part of the scenario and so influence the event. Though, I’m not saying you did, this has to be checked. Here, e.g., your position in the system can influence you. It is probably very difficult from a suppressed position to make the effort to get all the nuances. Furthermore, some nuances may or may not only be visible from the group’s perspective. It is insofar more difficult to spend this time because it may even sound like an excuse for the white group, but it is necessary to get a verified view. Otherwise, there may be the option that you just see what fits your premise. You want to be logical and transparent on each step.

Furthermore, what is your research question and can it be answered with this observation? Where are the limits? Here may be other points where an individual perception influences the outcome.

You know all of this as a media professional. I could tell you nothing new what you didn’t already knew before.

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57

I try to be.

It’s akin to when people say, "The American people."

This is a massive group. There are things one can say about them, specifically, things one can say generally. However, you don’t have to talk about all of them in order to speak accurately about them, generally depending on what you say.

For example, most Americans do not see the U.S. as a racist society. I’d venture that, if you did speak to all 328 million Americans, you’d find that more than half of them feel this way. But no one has done this.

I’ve replaced the Forbes link with the NY Times one that contained the original essay.

All right.

I’m making a model.

My statements about race are part of a suite of observations. It’s not just, do you agree with my definition of racism, but how do you respond to the fact that I’m saying this?

Certainly, one cannot observe body language in an online forum. But as I told @Timo, everything people do and say in the forum is feedback; all of it. All of it helps build the model.

HA

58

Your observation example was specifically about the forum? I didn’t know that. See, you think you were clear from your point of view, but I didn’t have enough background information. A good illustration of observing and building models out of it. :grin:

Well, to be honest, Harry, I value our exchange, but I don’t feel comfortable that my posts are part of a model that you build. I understand why you do this. I just don’t know how to interact, now that all words carry so much meaning and they will be part of a model for perceiving the world (edit: I won’t stop interacting and didn’t want to imply that.). A model seems so … well… huge. Don’t you think?

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To quote myself :innocent::

@Timo

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The responses I’ve gotten in the forum—for example, the 10-item list I enumerated — are part of the model.

I write about racism on Spectrum in order to learn more about it. By learning, I build a better understanding of how racism works.

Part of how it works is how people respond to discussions about racism.

I’ve always said: I’m here to refine a counter-racist response to racism; to make it more robust, if you will. I’ve said this numerous times.

I believe you, if you say you didn’t know this.

No, I don’t think I’m necessarily clear.

For example, a number of people have charged me with saying “All white people are racist.” I think I see why they might say I’ve stated this, though I don’t see why after my sixth or seventh denial, especially when every word I’ve said can be searched.

I understand that anything I say may be unclear. However, when matters are unclear to me, I ask a question. Because this comes so naturally for me, I see it as something of a minimum pathway to clarity.

I appreciate this.

I hope that you don’t misunderstand, and that I’m not unclear: When I say “model,” in this context, I merely mean “The way things happen, or tend to do so,” in a very general way.

HA

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61

And yet garrulous harry has made it clear-
he mutes, by any and all means, by dismissal and diatribe, anyone who dare disagree.

Even if he has to crank up Public Enemy to ear bleeding volume./

Impossible to have respectful dialog with some folk. 'Nuf said.

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62

I’m surprise Harry @Harry_Allen would do a thing like that as he supposedly came to dialogue so he could learn a thing or two about racism? :wink:

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63

Now that’s an idea. Wonder if I can pitch it to them and make a fortune. Where’s my non-disclosure agreement? The devil will pay.

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64

Well, I tend to inadvertently run across a range of articles that point out all of the racist things that I do lately. Today I discovered that white people owning dog is racist. I am a double-racist in that regard. :rofl:

Thinking of that, Adventists can put one big stick in the wheels of the Catholic Sunday laws efforts, by officially declaring Sunday laws as racist. Pope could be declared racist too. Catholicism would quickly drop in attendance.

If only we could figure out a way to make not going to church on Sabbath as racist … we’d have to build arenas just to keep up with attendance!

Think about it, Adventism can be rewritten as the only true religion of anti-racism. It is racist to take the name of God in vain, etc. It is racist to covet thy neighbours ox, or his wife.

Imagine… Doug Batchelor talking on 3ARABS ( 3 anti racist angels broadcast saturdays ) about how racist Jewelry or Evolution is. Or how racist it is to have sex before marriage. Or how racist WO really is.

Of course, the above are only racist if white people do these. But, still… think about possibilities. Adventists would pretty much own the twitter. :slight_smile:

@Harry_Allen could be in charge of writing new quarterly! Imagine what you can do with that, Harry.

Ok. I gotta stop :rofl:

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65

Would breathing count as racism? :rofl:

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66

Sure, we can think of something. White people , on average, have higher lung capacity.

It puzzles scientists as to why. But we all know why…

Cause they are greedy air-gobbling racists, that’s why! :rofl:

#BLM Breathing Less Matters - racial equality apnea initiative.

Ok. I really have to stop.

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67

In that regard I am a “small mono-racist.” This is my dog, Fifi, a 13 y/o Chihuahua. She is a very generous dog, she allows us to sleep in her king size bed. basically every night. She is also a “believer;” she firmly believes that she runs the home… :rofl:

Fifi
Fifi3264×2448 1.4 MB

You better because the KGC may already be following you everywhere you go… Watch out! Beware of any black-suited guy coming too close to you. :laughing:
:wink:

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Ha! As Seinfeld said… Dogs are the leaders of the planet. If you see two life forms, one of them’s making a poop, the other one’s carrying it for him, who would you assume is in charge?

KGC? Oh, you mean Knights of Golden Circle… Well, actually we need them in that case. They would be a perfect swap for Jesuit infiltration conspiracy. :rofl:

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