General Conference and Division Officers Divided in Latest Vote on “Compliance” Document


(Johnny Carson) #21

This is a pinch Brother Ted has gotten himself into, and it’s of his own making. I think the old saying "damned if you do and damned if you don’t applies here. A real leader would have foreseen the pinch coming and worked as a true diplomat and statesman to divert it. Sadly, Ted’s not a real leader so here we sit. In a mess from which only a true leader would be able to pull us back from.


(Robert Lindbeck) #22

I don’t think I have ever seen an SDA Church Manual, let alone know what is in it. The only manual they should be using is the Bible, but even that is open to interpretation, depending on how you view it.

  1. Should we say because something is not expressly prohibited in scripture, it is OK?
  2. Should we say because something is not expressly permitted in scripture, it is forbidden?

These two views will give extremely different outcomes in behaviour.

What is not open for interpretation is the plan of Salvation. It is clear.

Christ died and rose again. Accept His gift of forgiveness. We are righteous in God’s eyes. The end. Anything that comes after that is a response to our Salvation and Christ’s gift to us.


(jeremy) #23

the correct translation for this result is 32 yes, and 32 no, since the two abstentions are obviously people fearful of losing employment…a tie, for all intents and purposes, really does mean the matter needs to be dropped…

if the compliance review committees are dropped, and yet there still persists a feeling that dissidence from san antonio should be punished, this could be a good time to assess whether the GC had the jurisdiction to pose a question on ordination to the delegates in the first place…i think this critical point, involving a review of what was a deliberate division of powers decision in our history, codified in GC WP B 05, needs to be permanently and forever settled, or we’ll continually run into difficulties stemming from varying understandings of this particular working policy…

probably the easiest solution is to invalidate the san antonio vote on the basis of a lack of jurisdiction…to validate the vote would mean GC WP B 05 needs to be dropped, or amended to the point of meaninglessness, in which case one wonders what authority any other GC working policy can have…


(Elmer Cupino) #24

If after having a speech campaign imploring support in his own backyard and all he can muster is 50% of the votes, imagine what might happen in Battle Creek when the battle hardened troops from the war zone are able to caucus. The outlook for TW does not bode well and he has a once-in-a-lifetime choice to change the trajectory on how history will remember him. Will he choose to be a statesman or the only GC president who successfully “united” the church to stand against his agenda?


(Raj Attiken) #25

If the goal is to achieve “unity” by authoritative enforcement of “compliance” at all costs, a 32/30 vote might be a harbinger of what is to happen in the global church if the proposed actions are voted at Battle Creek. It is absolutely astounding to watch the lengths to which the current GC administration is willing to go to keep women from exercising their God-given gifts and privileges in pastoral ministry. What has become evident is that the so-called compliance initiatives have nothing to do with unity, and everything to do with gender-discrimination and injustice.


(George Tichy) #26

I have no doubt that he is willing to do it. The man appears totally blind to reality, completely insensitive to common sense, very committed to discrimination, and thirsty for “power & control.”. I only hope that those people who will actually vote will not allow to be mesmerized by any of his threats.


(George Tichy) #27

Considering his EGO, I have the impression that the will opt for being called The Great Unifier in the SDA history book. The only one ever to be able to u nify so many people AGAINST him!


(Angela Larsen) #29

Has Ted Wilson now been given enough rope in order to hang himself? It looks very likely. What a shame he cannot see the situation he has created. He is in dire need of being saved from himself.


#30

This is Saul for the modern day. The church doesn’t need a David as much as it needs a Samuel or better yet a Micaiah, Because Mike Ryan, Dwayne Mckey, Mark Finley, Jerry Page, Derick Morris, Doug Batchelor, Jim Ayer, Randy Skeete, Michigan Conference, some others of their tribe of ASI and the tribe GYC, and others of their ilk are like 1Kings 22:12.


(2nd Opinion) #31

I doubt this will pass. If Wilson does push it through by some narrow margin, all the air will have gone out of the tires and he won’t be able to drive the thing forward. And I’ll eat my hat if the NAD doesn’t then pull back to 2% on tithe and invest that $50 million into training and hiring more women pastors. Wilson has been very effective in polarizing the church at this point (32-30-2). You may be able to win narrow votes in that environment, but you cannot lead a global church that relies on trust, consensus, and goodwill.


#32

I’m for the compliance document if all things were equal. Let’s talk compliance for the sake of bringing truth to the GC discussion.

  1. Rewind to Rwanda and check the baptisms numbers. Were people bussed, shipped, brought in from neighboring Divisions, Unions, Conferences/Missions to inflate the baptisms of the first TMI meetings to generate offerings in affluent countries/Divisions? If not, where are those numbers? Has the tithe increased in relation to the number of baptisms? Even if each one was paying their local equivalent of $1, there should be a consistent 100,000 coming in every month into Rwanda’s tither budget. Even if we lost 20%, at least 80,000 should be consistent. If it isn’t, then the reporting and stories printed by TMI and published in the Adventist Review and Adventist Mission must be checked for compliance and more importantly truth. Are the Adventist Review, Adventist Mission, Global Mission printing lies in order to get more money? Did the Division and Union officers in the African Division collude with Dwayne McKey and TMI to inflate the numbers for the story? We need an compliance audit here? Action must be taken and those guilty must be shamed (as they have called such to be done).

  2. Audit the numbers of baptism from Southern Asia, South Asia Pacific, and all the African Division. You don’t have to go there to audit the books. Audit the numbers against the tithe coming in. If you had 10,000 baptized by whatever ministry in whatever place, you should have that much at least in weekly offerings and even more in tithe. If those numbers don’t match than the “reaping” event was a farce to get more money from the Divisions/Unions they now want to penalize. The stories we have been told about baptisms are a mind game to make us pay more in offerings. Because the poor people in those poor churches need our support. The problem is they probably don’t exist and once we pay neither does our money. Call those Divisions and Division officers into compliance or fire them for colluding in lies. Hold the writers, editors, directors who wrote/promoted the stories against the compliance document’s principles and then accordingly shame or fire them (whatever the consequences are for not being compliance). And you can’t say these are poor people; the Hindus, Muslims, Buddhist, ancestral worshippers spend more in incense, flowers, garlands, etc, for their worship than a measly $1 (or their local equivalent) in offering. 1 person=1 cash (or more) will allow you to see if that’s been consistent since any of these stories were published. If they aren’t, some one is lying. Bring them to the compliance court.

  3. Why aren’t SPD cities, places in NAD, TED cities, or EUD cities in the TMI plans? Is it because it is easier to check the falsehoods that are told in stories? Because people in the cities know less about Jesus than in many of the countries/places on the TMI map. Are city people or those in NAD not worthy of TMI? Or will TMI be found out when it can be well documented or audited? If that’s the case, even more reason to audit the Divisions of Africa, and every other place that has conducted a TMI meeting.

  4. When Duane McKey took over AWR, he started using money dedicated to the radio ministry for use of his (and Wilson’s) pet project TMI. Those monies were donated as per charity law for a particular use and then were used for something else. As this is probably a violation of tax law and church policy, this should be audited for compliance. Furthermore, personal expenses including massages, gifts to employees, hiring and firing practices (many against the policies of the GC), and most trips are via Texas to manage his home base (the previous publishing director wasn’t re-elected because he would do the same through the Philippines). Duane McKey’s management isn’t in compliance. Someone needs to audit that. The treasury was doing that but Wilson pushed to reassign the staff that was catching the indiscretions. Also, Mckey’s wife is hired as Social Media/Communication for President; no offense, but the lady wouldn’t know Facebook from FaceScroll. And she has a travel budget so she can travel with her husband (via Texas, of course). Hiring people for jobs that they are not qualified for or have, no idea about, isn’t in compliance, is it?

  5. There are several hired after 2015 in Assistant and Associate positions that do not have ministerial degrees but were hired for ministerial jobs. These are GYC members who proudly speak of their degrees and universities as if the say they are sacrificing so much to be in the ministry. They are now sponsored to get their MDivs or equivalent. Explain why, when we have hundreds who take loans to train for the ministry, is the GC hiring GYC and Michigan Conference people and then paying them to study when we already have hundreds from Adventist Universities available. It is unfair to the accredited ministers who sacrificed the financial well-being of their family to be in the ministry.

  6. Travel: audit the travel of all the traveling staff at the GC to see the number of days they choose to be away from their families. They do this because they make money off their per diem, accrue mileage to make family trips later, or cash out privilege awards. I overheard several GC directors talk about how best to maximize on their travel.

When the GC removes the logs from their out of compliance eyes, then they can come looking for the dust in our local conferences.


(George Tichy) #33

I guess it’s already too late. He already pulled the cord!


(Dan Springer) #34

does the lawyer that is on staff have a conscience? most don’t, except to those who pay the bill. my experience with denominational ‘lawyers’ is that they are good at double speak. will tell you one thing and the folks who pay them something else.


(Calvin Chan) #35

If i’m reading the implications of this pre-vote correctly, then the TW camp stands to be getting a drubbing in a weeks time.
The 50% who voted ‘no’ in this pre-vote would seem to me to clearly have had enough of this ‘compliance enforcement’ thing and will almost certainly vote ‘no’ again in a weeks time.
And amongst the 50% who voted ‘yes’, some obviously intend to vote ‘yes’ again in a weeks time, however a not insignificant percentage of them were more than likely just being polite in the pre-vote to at least allow the ‘document’ to be on the agenda, but don’t support what is being proposed in the document and won’t be talked out of it in a weeks time.


(Jeffrey Kent) #36

I’m distressed by the simple fact that we have a bloated administrative structure with too many levels. We should have a triangular structure, with vast numbers of pastors in the field, and smaller numbers of administrators at each level above them. However, we have instead a rectangular structure, with a similar number of pastors and administrators–which is inefficient, a poor use of resources, and just plain stupid. Real leaders would seek to streamline the denomination and strive to get the final work done.


(Terrill Utt) #37

TW is not acting alone. He seems to have an inner group around him that must hold to a similar view of things. I frequently think of the term “group think” as this plays out. To actively push forward with plans that divide the church in this way is not going to be his contribution to “The Shaking.” It will weaken and distract the church from its mission AS A PART OF THE REMNANT. We have a specific message for these times, but the GC leadership is causing injury to the church in the name of [coerced] unity. To quote a present teacher, “You cannot win battles for God using Satan’s methods.” One can be properly motivated, but completely wrong. We all pray to the same God, even if our understanding of God’s character is different. That understanding is between us and God, no committee required. Wake up, GC, and show leadership of service to the church, or step down and let others more suited to the task of leadership needed at this time carry us forward.


(George Tichy) #38

There may certainly be some honest lawyers out there, no doubt about it. It’s bad that I could not yet meet one of them. I have observed a complicated case lately involving a family member here is Riverside, which made me lose totally my confidence that I will ever meet an honest attorney. Though, I am sure there must be some of them out there…


#39

Well friends, I really don’t think the GC could handle a 50 million annual budget shortfall. If you count 100k per employee, which is probably a little cheap considering healthcare, etc. That would be like 500 employees salaries, or just say 400 salaries to be generous. That would definitely be a shortfall. Couple that with the strong US dollar at the moment, and the currency issues in South America, and it would really place the GC in a budget crisis. They would either have to pull massive amounts of money out of reserves, or start laying off dozens/hundreds of people…


(jeremy) #40

according to the church’s 2017 annual statistical report, total tithe for the world church was over 3.2 billion…a 50 million shortfall represents a 1.5 % shortfall…that can probably easily be absorbed through salary and benefits cuts, hiring freezes, traveling cuts, cuts in donations for infrastructure spending in impoverished areas, etc…


(Ed Reifsnyder) #41

Okay. Sounds good. I’ve wandered those halls, asking myself what the people do that makes a real difference anywhere. We all know the church is top heavy with bureaucracy. The GC would be a good place to start.