God Reacts: The Three Angels’ Message


(Irene) #21

I can agree with this overall approach.
But then I wonder a little (as an average SDA member without an academic title in this field) why Jesus puts so much effort into communicating something so simple to us. The gospels and the letters of the apostles would have been enough - but no! Jesus personally dictates His word to John, the Revelation, his letter to mankind, to the past, and present. Twice He says what is now and what will soon happen. And that we should take a close look at this letter. We should hear AND see. This letter is so eloquent, rich, strong, full of incredible, fantastic symbols, it drips with beasts and monsters, harlots and kings, wars and plagues, and angels. And how Jesus introduces Himself, presents Himself with all the many strong and powerful attributes, and His faithfulness and love to His people through all times, the eternal gospel.
So how is all this effort explained ?


(Steve Mga) #22

Through it all, God is STILL on the Throne.
Jesus, the Lamb model, STILL accepts sinners.
The Holy Spirit, is STILL our Comforter, STILL prays our prayers for us.
STILL nudges us to transition into New Creatures while STILL living in
the Evil Empire.


(Phil van der Klift) #23

If I am understanding your question, I am only proposing that the context helps inform more accurate interpretation of the details - not that the context does away with the value of the details.


(antony nyathi) #24

If we take the suggestion made that maybe we have been too narrow in our defining of Babylon it means Babylon by this proposed definition would then not be an endtime power but an ever-present threat that we must avoid at all times. It is a power we must find throughout the pages of history, all across the world(?)


(Patrick Travis) #25

John likely in Rev.14:6-8 is referring back to Isa.52 :7. The euangelion is “that our God reigns.” He will come/came with salvation and judgment.
Jesus was faithful to covenant and brings to we who believe, our salvation and to the unregenerate and those who oppose his people, judgment.


#26

“Requests” “celebrate”?
C’mon Steve, this read like a request? Requests usually don’t contain death as a consequence of non performance. Nor do I see “celebrate” or die anywhere…
Ex. 31:
13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you.

14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.


(Steve Mga) #27

Paul –
There was a difference on how “Community” was governed during the 40 year trip to
Canaan and AFTER everyone went their way once it was “settled”.
The people had JUST come out of Slavery of 400 years. They had to learn HOW to
live and manage themselves. They had NEVER done that before. So in order to
develop a life-style that was love God, love your neighbor, there HAD TO BE some
stiff rules.
Look what happened when Moses was gone only a month up the mount, and God
was still there and they could see it every day, all day. STILL created the Golden
Calf and initiated the rituals they had witnessed in Egypt.


(Leroy Gillan) #28

I am rather new to Spectrum. Who is Spectrumbot?


#29

That indicates a quote from the article. When you see Spectrumbot it indicates that the poster has quoted the article about which they are commenting.


(Scott M Esh) #30

Your Bible has rewritten the verse. The Bible says “faith OF Jesus.”


#31

The power of “social learning theory”?


(Ikswezdyr) #32

As a student of Graham Maxwell I remember him telling us that God brought on the flood, not out of punishment, but to save humanity. If he hadn’t after Noah and his family had died off, there would have been no communication with humans–they were the last of God’s people. This is obvious, and Satan would have owned the world. We can speculate that humanity would have eventually destroyed itself or remained a wicked blot on the universe. I believe this is the most reasonable approach to the flood.
I believe that the use of the term fire symbolizes a purifying of the earth rather than a torturous barbecue. I see a quick termination of the wicked also spoken of as “outer darkness” in other places. Wasn’t the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels and not humans?


(Ikswezdyr) #33

Dr. Tonstad: With some trepidation I would like to present another meaning of the Sabbath. I recognize your qualification and scholarship on the Sabbath far outweigh mine and your insights are appreciated, especially as they broaden the concept of the three angels message which has been so narrowly interpreted in the context of early Adventism’s era.
Spectrum was kind enough to put on this post a few weeks ago my article on Sabbath. I would appreciate it if you would look at it and give me feedback. The meaning of God’s commitment is true, but for us today I think that Sabbath represents our rest in Christ and His righteousness for our salvation. This is why many Christians think we are legalists and don’t connect Sabbath to His rest. I believe if this were the focal point of Sabbath evangelism, many Christians would listen. Sunday is based on human works (as symbolized in Cain’s offering of his works rather than the Lamb). The Gospel is about Christ’s life for ours and I find this celebrated in His Sabbath rest. The Jews rejected His rest. This is how Hebrews 4 makes sense to me.


(Patrick Travis) #34

Hi ike,
Thanks for your comment. The premise some use is that it is below the character of God to destroy the wicked and it must be done by satan or natural means.
So if Graham wanted to say God destroyed but it was to save humanity as an effect , I’m ok with that. He still destroyed when He deemed it necessary. Likewise at the end when Rev.20:15 says those not found in the book of the redeemed will be throne into the lake of fire…by God…not satan. It rids the world of sinners that will not repent and continually bring harm to humanity as the effect. So indirectly He is saving by destroying. Does that work for you?


(Sirje) #35

…so, the entire SDA paradigm surrounding the identity of the saved, as given in “Revelation,” hangs on a two letter English word - is it OF or IN?

The KJV did not drop directly out of heaven, let’s be clear. In fact, as it turns out, it came from a translation of a translation, done in a rush, as the translator, Erasmus was in competition to put out the first printed version of the Greek New Testament. For the book of Revelation, Erasmus borrowed a manuscript from a German friend, Reuchlin. It was in poor shape and missing some pages, so Erasmus used the Latin Vulgate version and translated it back into Geek. OK, who cares. The point is, we (SDA) don’t believe in verbal inspiration, especially, from a questionable source, written in the spirit of a competition.

Jesus went to the cross, not as an example for us to follow, but as the “lamb” (of the OT), slaughtered for our sins. We can’t replicate that. So, when it comes to identifying God’s people in Revelation, the “Word of God” would not be leaving out the centrality of the cross, and make the Christian hope, simply, to mimic Jesus’ faith - which, by the way, produced beads of blood in the garden of Gethsemane.

The SDA Commentary: Faith of Jesus or, faith IN Jesus. The greek may be understood either way, though the latter meaning is generally preferred.

John, the writer of Revelation, himself, tells us which it is - I John 5:11- The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself…and the testimony is this, THAT GOD HAS GIVEN US ETERNAL LIFE, AND THIS LIFE IS IN HIS SON.

I have found no explanation of the “testimony OF Jesus”, other than His death paying for our sins - that, He took upon himself what we deserve; and giving us life eternal.


(Elmer Cupino) #36

Handle name for Spectrum just like Leroy87 is yours. You will note that any “quotations” copied from the main article will be identified as “Spectrumbot.”


(Steve Mga) #37

Dr. Tonstad and idswezdyr –
I like this description of what the Sabbath is to do for us from the Jewish
“Siddur Sim Shalom”
“Grant me the privilege of the liberating joy of Shabbat, the privilege of truly
tasting the delight of Shabbat. May I be undisturbed by sadness, by sorrow, or by sighing during the holy hours of Shabbat. Fill Your servant’s heart with joy, for to You,
O Lord, I offer my entire being. Let me hear joy and jubilation. Help me to expand
the dimensions of all Shabbat delights.
Help me to extend the joy of Shabbat to the other days of the week, until I attain
the goal of deep joy always. Show me the path of life, the full joy of Your Presence,
the bliss of being close to You forever. May the words of my mouth and the
meditations of my heart be acceptable to You, O Lord, my Rock and my
Redeemer.”

I have never heard ANY SDAs speak of the Sabbath in these terms. I had to
hear it from my Jewish Brethren and Sisters, and get to recite it with them every
Friday evening as the Sabbath comes.


(Scott M Esh) #38

The SDA commentary is not an inspired book. It was written using human opinions as study guides. I would never waste my time trusting what it says.

The Bible says that salvation comes in three distinct parts:

II Timothy 4:10 tells us that God saved all men, then especially saved those that believe.

In another verse God tells us that after being reconciled by forgiveness, we shall also be saved by his life.

It is clear to me that your Biblical understanding is keyed on only one salvation.

Until you understand these three forms of salvation, you will likely put all forms of salvation not one box, instead of separating these three concepts and understanding the entire plan of salvation properly.

Yes, the faith OF Jesus is not a mistake, and clearly, you have absolutely no idea what makes that an important statement. You said so in your response.

By your response, I think you are really confused about very important concepts concerning the Great Controversy and the full plan of Salvation.

How do you explain II Timothy 4:10? Until you can explain it without being a universalist, I doubt our conversation can go much farther.


(Sirje) #39

That’s OK. IITiim. 4:10 might be the wrong text. Try again. But you’re right about the Commentary. :smiley:


(Steve Mga) #40

2 Tim 4:10- Demas has deserted me. He loves the things of this life and has
gone to Thessalonica. Crecens has gone to Galatia, and Titus has gone to
Dalmatia."