GYC Annual Meeting Offers End-Time Inspiration and Outreach Opportunities


#121

What did he do to be permanently banned from commenting, if it is not a secret?


(Tim Teichman) #122

You do realize your whole post appears to be nitpicking, right?


#123

“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Mat 5:48)

“She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more” (John 8:11)

“Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole:sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.” (John 5:14)

Obviously, Jesus is asking us to aim high and if he is asking us not to sin and be perfect, obviously, he thinks that it is possible to do it (unless we think that Jesus is asking us to do impossible things).

So, while it is always possible to have a twisted vision of what God asks us to do (for example, what does Jesus means by “be ye perfect”? Is his idea of perfection the same as the world idea of perfection?), the requests of Jesus are always achievable (of course, it doesn’t mean that it is easy). Maybe those who are discouraged and feel guilty are those who try to do it the wrong way. Or maybe they are surrounded by some nitpickers who find their mission in life to put everybody down.

It is true that trying to be perfect by oneself can lead to disillusion and failure. And it can lead to legalism and to a belief of salvation by works.

We have to remember that it is God who does the perfecting.


#124

You do realize that your comment on my post appears to be nitpicking, right?

(and so on…)

We can continue that dance for a long time, Tim. But I am not interested.


(Tim Teichman) #125

You seem to be. You’re still here.


(Cfowler) #126

I understand what you are saying. I’m sure that criticisms can come across as being picky, or negative.

What do you see as problems in the SDA church, if any?


#127

Tim,

Faith can be an empty word. This is why James said that faith without works is dead. If you say that you have faith but you don’t pray, don’t seek holiness, don’t have respect for the things of God, are not reverent, etc, this faith can be questioned.

Renunciation of the law as a path to salvation doesn’t mean that there is no law. Jesus himself said that if we love him we have to keep his commandments. So, there is a law that we have to keep (whatever we think the law is).

We are not saved because we keep the law. We keep the law because we are saved and changed (born again). I don’t lie just because I want to be saved. It is because I am saved and changed, born again, that I don’t lie.

The problem with your way of thinking is that you are so afraid of legalism that you are willing to throw away the law altogether. The law is not the problem, The problem is us, human beings.

What would you say if a country decided to get rid of all the driving regulations because of the fear of the population to get a ticket? Sure, there would be no more fines but would this measure get rid of accidents? Of course not! Because the problem is not with the regulations but with the behavior of the people. The solution to bad driving is not to behave only when there is a police officer behind you (or to get rid of the driving regulations) but to have a better character so that one values the safety of other drivers. Then obeying the speed limit becomes natural and one is not afraid when a cop suddenly appears in the rear mirror.


#128

There are problems in the church for sure (not a surprise when dealing with human beings) but there are also very good things. For once, when there is an article about a positive activity involving the young people in the church, it would be good to build up rather than tear down. After all, is it not what we want, to see our young people take charge, be involved, reaching out, helping out, encouraging and praying for other people, etc, instead of staying home playing video games all day long and just wasting time?

GYC is a good thing. Young people are involved. Let’s encourage them and show that we are behind them.

And let our words be words of affirmation. They need that.


(Thomas J Zwemer) #129

[George. I am fed up with end time theology. each is given three score and ten plus or minus a decade or so., in Christ we have assurance. so live lwith that confidence and share it with confidence.These holier than thou gatherings are self delusional, and an embrassament to Christianity. in my day it was just We are climbing Jacobs Ladder. The first 8 chapters of Romans is assurance the rest is life style.theology.,quote=“GeorgeTichy, post:8, topic:17735”]
Phil
[/quote]


(Anne Marbury) #130

I’ve heard words exactly like yours recently. Words that express frustration and even exhaustion with having to listen to any criticisms of the SDA church. Having just spent a week at Christmas with a lot of conservative SDA relatives I heard one strongly express this same feeling—not in response to conversations anyone had in their presence. It was just their way of letting it be known that they didn’t want to hear any SDA criticisms in their home. So this is a subject I’ve thought about quite a lot in the last few weeks.

Here’s the conclusion I’ve come to. Not too earth shattering, but here it is: different personalities deal with conflict and disagreement in different ways. And in my personal experience there are a whole lot of SDAs who want basically no conflict. They love an authoritarian culture and they will support it no matter what. They are also very loyal in their makeup—loyal to the authority of “the church”, which they see as solely the SDA church. They do not to want to hear any discussion of missteps by church leadership.

When you add to this core group of people many others who find themselves as Adventist, often through chance of birth, who happen to be of a different personality makeup, well then you get the kind of discussions that happen here on Spectrum. And speaking as one from the second group I find these discussions to be heartening and a real breath of fresh air in an otherwise stale community.

I understand that this discussion is upsetting. What do you suggest? Do you really think that others have no right to talk and toss ideas around? Shouldn’t the one who is uncomfortable possibly consider going to an official SDA publication where they can see all the positive spin they could ever hope for? And I’m not suggesting that anyone leave—just that they take a little break if it’s too much. Then come back!! Enjoy the conversation.


(Frank Peacham) #131

I agree with your sentiment, I feel your passion. Yet it is good to keep things in perspective. When you read the OT we see grace is often buried under frequent calls for complete obedience.

Then Moses and the elders of Israel commanded the people, “Keep all the commandments I am giving you today…Cursed is he who does not put the words of this law into practice.’ And let all the people say, ‘Amen!’” Dt 27

This should give us pause to be more tolerant toward those who see salvation in more black and white terms. I suppose most of the congregation of Moses did! The church leadership is in an impossible situation. To deny last day perfectionism will effectively dismantle the core of the SDA church. EGW held that Jesus overcame all sin, not through his divinity, but in his humanity. Thus he forever silenced the Satanic change that God created laws that could not be obeyed. If so, there is forever a reason for the continued existence of Satan. Now Christ victory an enabling grace has made it possible for humanity to also overcome all sin, EGW reasons, and finally silence the charge of Satan that God’s laws are unjust.

Where should the church leadership go from here?


(Tim Teichman) #132

It is not appropriate to question someone else’s faith. The way it manifests for each person can be expected to be different. For example, I don’t pray (much) or “seek holiness” (don’t know what that means) but no one can derive from this that my faith is lacking. Many of your suggestions are at best confusing to me, but I guess that’s OK 'cause they’re important to you.

We agree on this!

On this we don’t agree.

I’m not afraid of legalism. I have rejected it in any form. And also the law.

There are several covenants (contracts with God) in the bible, each given to a different person or group, for that group. The last a Horeb. Each time a new covenant is given to the people it became in effect for those people. Jesus, a descendant of those from Horeb, stated he was here to fulfill that law, that covenant (contract), here to complete it - we believe through his death.

After Jesus death, Paul stated that that contract was not in effect for Christians, specifically Pagan converts. He warned Christians to not place themselves under the Law, something Jewish-Christian missionaries had been preaching to his churches.

Galatians 3 and 4, read in their entirety, make this clear.

Statements from these chapters include these excerpts:

You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh [means of your sinful nature by following the law]?4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. [but it doesn’t]

23 Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

4 What I am saying is that as long as an heir is underage, he is no different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate. 2 The heir is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father. 3 So also, when we were underage, we were in slavery under the elemental spiritual forces of the world. 4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship. [A much higher status. In Jesus day being adopted by someone was a great honor.]

8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces [turning back to the Law]? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10 You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! [holy days, including Sabbaths, from the law] 11 I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.

21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.

24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai [the Law] and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.

28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.”31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman. [we are not under the law, and should not observe it]


Paul’s argument is more persuasive when read in its entirety.

I don’t deny in any way that works do come as a result of faith, but I do deny that anyone can make a list of what those works should or must be - especially for others. Good works will come naturally over time and with a maturity of faith, and are different for each person; it is not valid to critique how that manifests in others - not valid to judge others by their works.

The ancient religions, including Judaism, were religions that were based on practice. Devotees prayed to and sacrificed to the gods. That was it. Most were not even concerned with what you believed, as long as you practiced correctly.

Christianity is the opposite. It is based on faith, on internal belief, and not on practice. It is a more difficult path in some ways. As in Paul’s day, it is tempting to add practice to this basic truth.

Many think, for example, that it is required to go to a building once a week and pray. Or to regulate what you eat. Or to give to the gods (the church). Or to confess to a priest. Or to pay for one’s sins in some way, such as with acts of penance. But these are all Pagan ideas, inherited by Christianity as it grew out of a Pagan empire - with mostly Pagan converts. These acts, though perhaps beneficial, are not required.

Following the Law, or even just the 10 commandments, is not required. It’s a good thing, too, because while we claim to, we don’t really even attempt to follow all of what is written in the 10 commandments, much less the Law in its entirety.


(Elmer Cupino) #133

There is indeed no one group that has it all right but since everyone has experienced the need to be perfect as it is part of our developmental growth , we can relate to the subject and be vulnerable. The age of concrete thinking is fraught with the neeed to please parents therefore it is part of our affective, emotional and cognitive experience. LGT is nothing but a derivative of this developmental phase. The task is to neutralize the compulsion to please a set of imaginary parents as we proceed to achieve full mental autonomy as we enter adulthood. Some are never comfortable in accepting full responsibility of their behaviors so they latch and lean on to an object even it that object were to be God. Therein lies the seduction of religion. It is no one’s fault but it is everyone’s task to neutralize and discard it as we age cognitively.


(George Tichy) #134

Tom,
If only someone could tell us what is the “end of time theology” good for… :roll_eyes:


(Rohan Charlton) #135

Why? Why is Kevin’s voice not permitted here? Spectrum’s overall ethos would seem to espouse tolerance and theological flexibility.

Do you make an exception in the case of Kevin?


(Website Editor) #136

@rohantocharles, thanks for your questions. We ask that all commenters abide by our commenting guidelines, a link to which can be found at the end of every article. Diverse views are always welcome, but we ask that our commenting policy be respected by all commenters, regardless of their viewpoints.

-WebEd


(Website Editor) #137

@Nymous, the commenting platform (Discourse) makes public if someone is suspended or banned, so it is viewable to anyone, but we do not discuss the details with anyone but the individual. If you have questions on the type of behaviors that can lead to warnings, suspensions, or permanent bans, we suggest you review our commenting guidelines, which are linked to at the end of every article, as well as here:

https://spectrummagazine.org/page/commenting-policy

-WebEd


(Cfowler) #138

Is there a text for that accusation that Satan made? I don’t remember seeing it, but that doesn’t mean it’s not there.


(Tim Teichman) #140

Kevin who? Can you provide a link where we can see this public information?


(Frank Peacham) #141

No direct Scripture verse, a composite from many verses with the guidance of EGW’s visions. No other religious groups hold to this view, that I know of. This is EGW’s central pillar for the Great Controversy theme.