Homosexuality: Are We Cloaking Bigotry with Scripture?

(Kim Green) #291

Haha…no. Just a scheduled visit to look at new homes in Co. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

(George Tichy) #292

Manuel, then you are in good company here, “believe me, … believe me” (as the Russian envoy Trump would say… :roll_eyes:)

This is a safe place for open minded people (like you and me, and many others) who respect even those who are narrow minded and occasionally land here too. Everyone is free to post their ideas a long as they do not attack others on a personal basis (ad hominem). What else do we need, right?
La gran mayoría de las personas aquí son buena gente!!! :slight_smile:

(George Tichy) #293

ROFL… :rofl:
Elmer, you are something else!
Manuel @manuelsda should also know that our team is on call here on Spectrum 24/7, to help some nuts that may eventually fall around here. Also available to any Spectrumite who may “lose it” whe the LGTarians attack out site. All free of charge!!! :+1:

(Elmer Cupino) #294

Particularly those who distort definitions such as “ad hominem” vs “disagreement” as our good friend Allen @ajshep seemed to have been a victim.

(Elmer Cupino) #295

Don’t tell us you are moving out of Albuquerque?

(Patrick Travis) #296

My wife and I try to ski at Copper/Summit Co. every year. The mountains are magnificent almost surreal.
Would be great to be close by.

(George Tichy) #297

OFF TOPIC, but very important:

To: @milton007 Milton Hook

Milton, I really need to write this here. I got a copy of your book,the biography of DESMOND FORD, published by Adventist Today. Don’t ask me why it took me so long; I don’t know.

So, I started reading last night and almost could not stop. It’s extremely well written, and extremely interesting. I knew much about Des after 1980, but not before that; therefore I am learning a lot. I made contact with him (via snail mail) in 1980 after reading his GV document, and kept in touch since. In 1990 I had just come to the US when we met personally at the Seventh Day Baptist Church in Riverside-CA where he used to come at least once a year for a special weekend. We met several times after that here in Loma Linda, and kept in touch when he moved back to Australia. He was a fascinating person, a decent human being, a true Christian, intellectally honest, and a brilliant mind.

Was he way too big for the Adventist mentality? Absolutely!!!

But, as I read your book, I am just speechless about the dynamics in his life. WOW!

I am also glad that you defined the fundamentalist mentality right at the beginning, because then it’s easier for the readers to understand what was actually going on. The whole thing was not about Scripture and doctrine, it was about manipulation and abuse of power by people who were mostly not even smart theologians. I get it. (I knew it already…)

Thank you for writing this excellent book! What a contribution!!! I may be done with it by Friday since I am already 25% through… :open_mouth: :open_mouth:

Nobody would repent from reading this exciting, fascinating book. Not even Des’ detractors… :wink:

The book is available at Adventist Today https://atoday.org/ or contacting @lorenseibold on FaceBook (Adventist Today).

[Sorry for posting this here, but I could not find a better thread.]

(George Tichy) #298

He as the “victim?” :thinking:
WE are the victims of the distortions. He is a good and kind person, very amicable and respectful indeed, but some concepts that he endorses are really not much attractive.

(Kim Green) #299

We live in Santa Fe. So, I can’t tell you we are moving out of Albuquerque…lol. Nonetheless…moving closer to Denver will expedite my husband’s business travels. I have mostly enjoyed Santa Fe with all of its uniqueness but I will appreciate a similar climate with more moisture.

It is also similarly beautiful there with the mountains which I love. It definitely is a good size city and growing rapidly still. I will have to check out some of the massive “Mega Churches” there…they are certainly prominent on the skyline in parts of the city. The Evangelicals have made their presence known here and you do hear a fair amount of “church” talk when in restaurants, etc. The other groups here are the military and college students…and “regular” people. Quite an interesting mix.

(Kim Green) #300

You do like those Aussies, George! :wink: Thanks for making us aware of the book.

(David) #301

I’m a homosapien and proud of it.

(George Tichy) #302

Any LGTarians in town as well?.. lol

(George Tichy) #303

I do! I almost became one of them, but missed immigration requirements. I was already 37. If I had applied at age 35, I would be an Aussie by now! :+1:

(David) #304

Thank you George. I’m ordering Desmond’s book on revelation too.

(George Tichy) #305

Welcome David, I am sure you will like his books. He was a great, pleasant preacher as well. Actually, if you search his name on YouTube you will find a huge collection of sermons.

(David) #306

I didn’t even have to hypothesize Kim. I simply referred to what lot said (or didn’t say).

“See now, I have two daughters who have not known a man; please, let me bring them out to you, and you may do to them as you wish.”

Does it sound to you like he thought it was a wicked thing to have his two virgin daughters molested? Do you sense any outrage in the text? Maybe you can read Lot’s mind but I can’t. All I have to go on is what is written in the text.

This isn’t about what I think, it’s about what God thinks. Based upon the biblical evidence, I would have to conclude that God thinks it is more wicked for a man to rape another man than to rape a woman. Call it aggravating circumstances. Call it a weightier crime. Matt. 23:23 (and have neglected the weightier matters of the law)

Both are horrific crimes, obviously.

By the way, the state doesn’t consider rape wicked. It doesn’t even have the word “wicked” in the criminal justice system. http://www.traumainformed.org/criminal-justice-terminology-guide/

The concept of wickedness originated with the bible. Wickedness is associated with departing from God and His commandments.

From what little I know it’s usually the man (male) who does the raping (but I’m not the expert).

I’ll take your word for it Kim. I’ll repeat what I said, the rapist is usually, if not always a male. And again we’re not talking about the feelings of the raped. We’re talking about the wickedness of a man penetrating another man. That’s the issue; not feelings of the raped.

Again you seem to be insinuating that I have horrible and misguided thinking because I refer to the scriptural evidence in Genesis. What kind of phrase is, “to think that Lot felt”? Where do you get that from? Do YOU know how Lot felt?

I didn’t write the story of Lot and Sodom but you can bet I’ll try to understand it. Thankfully Lot didn’t have to actually go through with that choice. Personally I don’t believe the Angels would have allowed it. I think the whole point of the record is to enlighten us on the depravity that existed in Sodom and to show us the consequences of such behavior. Christ and Peter both referred to the destruction of Sodom.

I would like to reemphasize that we don’t know anything other than the text we’re analyzing. The point of the analysis is not to wonder about how Lot felt about the choice of giving up his daughters. It’s about what Lot considered wicked. It’s that simple.

Man raping a man = a wicked crime

Man raping a woman = a crime (but not wicked according to Lot)

I didn’t say that Lot wouldn’t be hurt, saddened, or suffer about giving his daughters up to be molested. I said Lot didn’t say it was a wicked thing (thus I surmised that he didn’t consider it wicked; a crime yes; wicked no).

In Judges 19:23-20:6 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Judges+19%3A23-20%3A6&version=NKJV it actually does say that what was done to the traveler’s concubine was a wicked thing. The Levite traveler called it lewdness and outrage. The text says the men didn’t want the women, only the male traveler. When they finally settled for her, it says they knew her and abused her all night which leads me to believe they penetrated both you-know-whats and she most likely died from internal bleeding from the abuse of the you-know-what. Until the extent of the abuse (her death) was known it seems her husband was acting like business as usual (And he said to her, “Get up and let us be going").

The aggravating circumstance of the woman’s death seemed to be a contributing factor in the classification of the crime as being wicked.
@cincerity, @1QOL, @kalfoof

(Kim Green) #307

I am glad that you have it all figured out, David…do carry on.

(Kim Green) #308

Haha…I don’t know! Perhaps if they are on this site they can make it known that they are from C. Springs. :wink:

(Kim Green) #309

That’s interesting…so was Australia your first choice for immigration?


The suffering you endured is truly tragic and completely unnecessary.

God loves and cares for you and will never cast you off due for this reason. The enemy of souls has no claim against you that Jesus didn’t already pay the price for any differently than heterosexuals.

You and all those like yourself will take a place in the Kingdom that will astonish those who judge you unworthy of the grace and love of God.