Homosexuality: Are We Cloaking Bigotry with Scripture?


(Charlie) #451

I certainly didn’t choose to be gay. In fact I did all I could to change and be straight…to assume I chose this sexuality is absurd. As a Christian whip is the target of so much ignorance and disapproval from fellow Christians, life has been a nightmare that has taken it’s till in terms of both my physical, mental and spiritual well-being. To still have to deal with such ignorance at 56 is almost beyond reckoning. Why can’t people leave me in peace to just live my life?


(George Tichy) #452

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and feelings Charlie. I can feel your frustration with so many people making statements, including here, on an issue that they are totally ignorant about. Those people keep making demeaning statements because they are obviously completely ignorant about the issue. It makes it still worse when ignorance is accompanied by arrogance.

IGNORANCE + ARROGANCE = really bad-tasting sandwich!


(Kim Green) #453

"Why can’t people leave me in peace to just live my life?"

Insecurity and fear…it isn’t a pretty combination- but there it is. Please know that many of us support you, Charlie, to live a good and peaceful life.


(Steve Mga) #454

Charlie – perhaps you need to move mentally from “Religion”
to just enjoying the Trinity as you discover them as described in
the Word.
You might enjoy James, and 1 John. 1 John is a commentary on
his Gospel.
People in “Religion” always compare the members around them, to
see if they are living up to pre-conceived ideas of what is “perfection”.
Just ignore a lot of that talk.
Enjoy God.


(Allen Shepherd) #455

We are born with certain proclivities. We do not choose them. However, we can choose to follow their bidding or not. There are a minority of gays who do not follow their internal desires and live celebrate or even marry and live heterosexually. Such lives are not unknown.


(Kim Green) #456

"Such lives are not unknown."

Who do you know that has successfully lived this way, Allen?


(George Tichy) #457

Allen,
How many gays do you know personally that fought their nature and actually married and lived heterosexually.
Regarding that “celebrate”…what are they celebrating again?.. :wink:


(Kim Green) #458

Those poor gay individuals that attempt such a thing is sad…but no less so for their spouses. The LDS have a group called “Evergreen” that attempts to marry gays to straight people. I saw a picture of one LDS couple with a baby and the poor husband looked like a deer caught in the headlights with a sickly smile. So sad.


(Tim Teichman) #459

That is a horrible outcome! When someone who is gay presents themselves as strait (a lie) and bases their relationship with a person of the opposite sex on that lie, nothing good or positive results. It generally results in heartbreak and betrayal.


(Allen Shepherd) #460

That I do not know any personally does not mean it does not happen.

I think that orientation is more fluid than you think. Most gays have been aroused by the opposite sex at some point, enough for intercourses to happen. So, it does not seem so deterministic as the assertion is made.

If nature is so inflexible on this matter, how do you explain transgenders who biologically are one sex and claim to be another? The assertions that “My orientation is immutable”, and “I am not a girl, but a boy in a girls body” seem to be mutually incoherent.


(Steve Mga) #461

A number of Gays I have known that have “tried” to be heterosexual by
marrying a female that they liked and even had children, discovered
through the years that heterosexual marriage was not satisfying for
them OR their female spouse.
Quite a number of them eventually divorced, and were able to maintain
friendly relationship with each other and the kids.
From what I have seen, GL’s attempting to “BE” Heterosexual really
does not work for either party.
Being celibate, which means “being alone”, is NOT how God designed
the Human Mind. The writer of Genesis said a Truth. It is NOT GOOD for
“man to be alone.” The writer saying, “I’m quoting God.”
The Church to dictate otherwise is misrepresenting God, by assigning
everyone “to be alone.”


(Allen Shepherd) #462

So, I am correct, even gays can be arroused by the opposite sex enough so as to have intercourse and children. And the ones that successfully managed to ignore their orientation are not likely to tell you.

I do not deny that it is a difficult matter. But just not so deterministic. In other words, it can be done. We are more flexible than determinism.

You did not address the transgender/gay thinking incoherence.


(Steve Mga) #463

ALLEN-
You and I BOTH know that unprotected orgasm by males with females
is likely to produce children.
There are very few females who decide to marry who DO NOT want
children and the Man will attempt to bring this WISH to reality for her,
during HIS ATTEMPTS to “Be a Normal Man”, as Heteros assume
and project on others what a “Normal Man” is and does.
But over time, it DOES NOT work for the Gay man’s Psyche.


(reliquum) #464

Like pride, especially pride in religious rightness or some other superiority - like gender, and the privileges associated in certain closed religious cultures. Or arrogance. Or lying. The list is long.

Begs the question, what proclivities were you born with, that you successfully beat their bidding? Perhaps we are all victims of “mutual incoherence”, defacto claiming for instance, superiority on some point, while acknowledging via a few incosistent words that we know we are humble enough to admit still having “proclivities”

Let me touch on another point-is not heterosexual celibacy itself thwarting the biological imperative, and as such failing the first commission to be fruitful and multiply? A God with eternity of time and infinity of space to fill, who chose procreation between equals-man and woman-to share “creation” and who loves to create and loves what he creates first framed that union as metaphor for human-god communion is suggestive, and provocative.

So, if he loves what he creates, and we choose to chastise, shame (meaning “not love”) an approximate 300 million people who seem to have little compunction to naturally fulfill said biologic imperative, what says that of us? Perhaps the gay adoption/surrogate/in vitro attempts to become “parents” suggests the biological desire is as strong as the emotional need to be loved.

I do not mean to impose any value judgment on gayness, whether acted on or not, and ask these questions to try answer some sticky wickets which we as a church (and as society) are still wrestling with. What if we simply loved and respected each other globally, and allowed God to sort it out? Did he not promise he would work out in us the needful things? Help me remember where he asked us to meddle in these beds that are not ours?

I for one would sure love to see pride and arrogance come out of the closet…and then begin the same type of calisthenics against such, to attempt to extrude some form of righteousness which I agree with.


(Steve Mga) #465

Timo –
Another denial of another Truth is this – Humans should NOT be alone.
God Himself said, It is NOT GOOD that Humans should be alone.
But the Religious say to some – You HAVE to be alone if you want to
be our friends forever.
THIS was Not in God’s plans for Humans.
We have no idea what Jesus meant when He said – there would be NO
marriages in heaven.
He did NOT say Humans would be “alone” in their rooms when they get there.


(George Tichy) #466

Happy Sabbath Allen! :+1:

I was super-excited thinking that you had finally found some cases (or at least one?) that could corroborate your long term, unsubstantiated opinions. I was ready for that “celebrate” event. But it’s obviously not the case.
Incoherent, as you used it, was certainly a very appropriate word… :wink:

Thanks for trying again. I (one of the “fools”… :sunglasses:) really appreciate the effort you make in trying (unsuccessfully of course) to prove your flawed opinions. Don’t give up, it must provide you with a good emotional boost and personal satisfaction! :+1:

@cincerity @elmer_cupino @bigtomwoodcutter


(George Tichy) #467

Maybe only “fools” would do such a thing… You know, those “fools on Spectrum” that Allen called us all here, in one of his sermons. Yes, from the pulpit, on a Saturday morning service… :open_mouth:


(Kim Green) #468

*"So, I am correct, even gays can be arroused by the opposite sex enough so as to have intercourse and children."

Allen, it sometimes amazes me that you are a medical doctor with statements such as this! Obviously, there has to be some non-heteros with just enough creative imagination that could arouse themselves to ejaculate within a hetero body. I can assure you that this “creative” conjuring had nothing to do sexual attraction towards their partner. If it did, then it would make them Bi-sexual in their orientation.

"And the ones that successfully managed to ignore their orientation are not likely to tell you."

Could it be possible for you to “ignore” your orientation…if so, how would you do it?

@elmer_cupino @GeorgeTichy @niteguy2


(Kim Green) #469

Steve, you are the “expert” on this topic of how Heteros “project” what a “normal man” is onto the population. Maybe you could expound a little more on the topic if you would. Thanks.


(George Tichy) #470

Exactly! The sexual act is in fact separated from any attraction process. People can successfully “make love” with closed eyes and thinking of someone else (male of female). That gay guy (that Allen does not know anyway…) can be married to a woman, and have sex with her while thinking of (dreaming with) “that other guy”… It’s weird, sure, but it happens!

But apparently none of this will ever be acknowledged by Allen @ajshep