Homosexuality: Are We Cloaking Bigotry with Scripture?

(Allen Shepherd) #491

Here is a long quote from Gagnon’s book, The Bible and Homosexual Practice pg 424-5 about the idea that homosexuals cannot change:

“If you press them (those that believe that homosexuality is immutable) they will say that it is obvious that homosexuals are “born that way”, implying some sort of genetic or hormonal determinism. In effect, such critics must completely reject environmental influences, even though the consensus in the scientific community–even among homosexual researchers such as Hamer and LeVay–is that environmental and psychological factors still play a significant role in the development of homosexuality. They must ignore the identical twin studies which have conclusively demonstrated that genetic influence is at best small and, in any case, certainly not immutable. They must ignore cross-cultural comparisons which show incredible malleability in rates and forms of homosexuality, not to mention intra-culteral comparisons such as he effect of urban settings, education, income and religion on the incidence of homosexuality. They must discount the capacity of rearing to override the genetic gender of people born with ambiguous genitalia. Indeed they must reject out of hand all the psychological and psychoanalytic data we have about the enormous effect that parental upbringing and peer socialization has on sexual development of children generally (not just homosexual development). they must too countless studies on behavioral modification. …etc.”

His whole chapter, The Hermeneutical Relevance of the Biblical Witness gives a great deal of info on this matter.

So, it is not that I think that it is merely a choice people make. There are profound influences. But deciding what to do with one’s proclivities is among them.

(Allen Shepherd) #492

Meaning he does not go along with the consensus here…

(George Tichy) #493


(Charlie) #494

Allen. I am your opportunity to meet the first person you can know who tried to change from gay to straight. I went to ex gay therapy based on Colin Cooks principles in my late teens and into my early twenties. Eventually I met and married a woman who I loved. We were best friends and both of us believed God could perform a miracle. I still love this woman and we ended up with 2 beautiful daughters. We were together for 25 years but there were major problems. Despite our commitment to Good and to each other there was not a day when I could say I was heterosexual. I was the best dad and husband I knew to be but I struggled with bouts of depression. I felt I was hiding and pretending much of the time… and I was. Still I had made a commitment and set about planning to recommit to our marriage bowed at our 25th wedding anniversary. The problem was every time I tried to talk about the celebration with my wife she just couldn’t have the conversation. I knew she was struggling. She ended up seeing a counselor. We never had that celebration though we exchanged rings one or anniversary. Six weeks later after an argument about washing dishes (of all things) She left me. I tried to convince her to go for couples counseling but after 3 months I accepted or marriage was over.
6 years on we have both moved forward. We are still friends and we are now grandparents. I have a new partner, a man who loves me. I am happier and more content than I ever was. I tried and failed to change. I prayed for 25 years of marriage but in reality over 35 years of my life for God to change my orientation. He didn’t change anything. These days I think maybe nothing needed changing. I think traditional theology about men having sex with men has very little to do with my experience of being a gay man. I hope you will listen and try to understand the lived reality that I and so many sincere Christians have experienced.

(Charlie) #495

You don’t really understand. You insist sexuality is flexible but I think what you are seeing is what Alfred Kinsey described as a spectrum of sexuality. The spectrum he describes is a graph stretching from 1 - Completely Heterosexual asked 6- Completely homosexual. I consider myself to be functionally bisexual but Im a Kinsey 4. I’m much more content in a relationship with another man than I ever was with my wife. I would suggest that most men who tried marrying women as a solution for their orientation were actually bisexuals. My current partner is a Kinsey 6. He has never dated women, would never contemplate it. Fortunately his parents let him find his way without interfering.

(Steve Mga) #496

Charlie –
Your experience is true for many Christians AND non-Christians who have
been told it is “just a mental attitude”, and they believe it was true, and
married one of their women friends. Worked for a while – in your case
about 25 years. For other just a couple of years to longer. Most of these
Men had one or more children. [Allen won’t believe this, but SEX is just
SEX, and orgasm for both parties. Which IS pleasurable by both.]
Finally ended in all of them splitting, most stay OK with their female partners,
and on good terms with children, and some with grandchildren.
IF YOU CAN, see my post on Swedish spot regarding my take on Genesis 1
and Genesis 2.

(David) #497

Watt was the question again?

(George Tichy) #498

Charlie, thank you so much for your testimony. It must have required a lot of thinking before being willing to write your story here. I really appreciate your courage and openness.

It seems that you may be the first person ever sharing an experience like that with Allen @ajshep. though he is a pastor and a physician. Or, actually the second one, because our good friend Tom @bigtomwoodcutter has done it several times before too.

I wish more people shared their experience here, but I know it’s not that easy (I am a psychologist). I am not sure Allen will ever listen to you guys. I say this based on his posts here and his firm conviction (though unsubstantiated) that the LGBT+ people chose to be that way, and can change whenever they decide too. Hopeful but baseless wishing…, we know that. :wink:

(George Tichy) #499

There have been many cases like that, unfortunately. It’s time for society and churches and families to stop this nonsense - because it ends up hurting someone badly. If a gay marries a straight woman, well, that woman may have her life destroyed sooner or later. And the same with the guy.

Isn’t it hypocritical that the Church allows the marriage between a gay and a straight knowing the potential damage involved? Crazy!


Does the church think a divorce is excusable for the straight who married a gay? Or if the straight remarries is it adultery? Same question for the gay who files for divorce and remarries. How does the church “rule” on these cases?

(George Tichy) #501

Do you think the Church’s leaders at the GC level are in any way prepared to deal with questions like that? With a mentality of discrimination as theirs, how could they even think of situations like that?

They can’t even deal with a woman being LEGALLY ELECTED President of a Conference!!! They go bananas with it, and show their dysfunctionality by not allowing her name to be printed in the Year Book. :sunglasses:

(Steve Mga) #502

George –
The SDA church is my church. But as you say, there is SO MUCH DYSFUNCTION
among those who have Masters and Doctorates in what is called “the Bible”.
And are those who Declare they have the power and authority, because of their
study, to decide who is IN and who is OUT of God’s Kingdom.
And WHO may sit at God’s Table.
And actually, WHO it is who God loves, and who God hates. And that some have
actually sinned the unpardonable sin by being born they way they were.
And to PRESCRIBE how they can find God’s love for them only by denying who
they are, how God made them. [if we believe what the Psalm writer says].
Maybe THEY don’t.

(George Tichy) #503

I often smell the (repugnant) odor of abuse of power when I see how the “leaders of the Church” deal with people. As if they had any “key” to the gates of Heaven. :roll_eyes:

(David) #504

Ohms says the answer is directly proportional to the current intelligence of the psychiatrists and inversely proportional to the resistance of the lightbulb (and whether it’s gray):crazy_face:.
@KevinSeidel, @elmer_cupino

(Kevin Seidel) #505

Most light bulbs get very resistant just before they change.

(David) #506

This just in: Vatican says gender identity is not fluid.

Well I guess that settles it.

(Elmer Cupino) #507

I guess when God says it’s not fluid, it’s not fluid. What else is there? Here’s a reading material that might interest you.

(George Tichy) #508

Elmer, as of right now, we have only 4 days left to settle this issue… because “This topic will automatically close in 4 days”… :innocent:
I hope it’s enough time for our good Spectrumite friends to read the material you provided. :+1:

(Manuel Fernandez) #509

I have read all discussions on this issue. This is my final take on this issue:
Matthew 5:8 “Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.”

(Elmer Cupino) #510

Are you implying that the 2 percent that have gender incongruence in the world are not pure? Lest you forget Matthew 25:40 “ And the king will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.’