Homosexuality: Are We Cloaking Bigotry with Scripture?

(Tim Teichman) #511

Yea, but what do doctors and scientists know? Next thing they’ll tell us is the world is older than 6,000 - 10,000 years and it’s round. Of all things. Obviously it can’t be round or people would fall off the bottom.

(Elmer Cupino) #512

Next thing you know, the sun will be created to compliment the light that came first.

(Patrick Travis) #513

Well, Elmer it seems we have two varying opinions from reputable sources. So not likely to be solved soon…definitely not 4 days :slight_smile:
Situations like this need to be thoroughly investigated on all points. Most important, I suggest, is that political, social, economic forces are kept out of the determination of scientific evidence. That goes for anthropogenic global warming also. Science is Science but today I feel on hot topics so much is tainted by outside forces for desired ends before absolute facts are known.


(Elmer Cupino) #514

As I had mentioned, this will be a never-ending debate and people will see it the way they want to see it unless they acquire clinical experience. One can read as many studies as our good friend Allen @ajshep claims but unless you know the nuances of the meaning of words in its specialty, it will be “bookish” and superficial in nature. I also can read surgical case studies but I won’t have the in-depth understanding and meaning as a surgeon. Same goes for psychiatry.

BTW, I see your wife hails from the PI. I too was born at the old Manila Sanitarium & Hospital when my father was treasurer of the hospital. Such a small world. Mabuhay!

(Patrick Travis) #515

Yes, we’ve been married 24.4 yrs and known each other 26. We were married in the Philippines. We speak English at home and about all I have retained is Mahal kita…always useful.:slight_smile:
I know most of us readers arent clinicians and we rely on Alternate opinions of those who are such as the writers of the article above for additional information.

(Allen Shepherd) #516

I might comment on this problematic post, but there are issues with doing so.

  1. This site is hostile to my thinking.
  2. Discussing this anecdotal experience would lead to attack because most here are sympathetic to his view of the matter.
  3. Why go to the trouble when no one would be convinced anyway?

So, take his testimony as you wish. God bless you.

(Allen Shepherd) #517

I would tend to agree with this. Of course there are biases in all of us. Surgery is a more material matter than mental issues. And of course there are the issues of scripture that are the real problem for me.

(Elmer Cupino) #518

This is not true, Allen. Never been.

We just subject your posts to critical thinking because of your breathtaking and impeccable credentials. Anything less than this should be considered an insult to you. :wink:

(George Tichy) #519

Come on Allen, nobody has ever been “hostile” to you. Disagreeable, yes. Challenging, yes. But “hostile?” No. You have considered some opinions as being “ad hominem” against you, but that was not fair at all.

I would agree with you if anyone here had called you a “fool,” yes that would certainly be demeaning, offensive, and maybe even hostile. But you have been blessed that nobody here went that low. Nobody.


Dear Allen,

I find it very ironic that when the first gay man addresses his own life and experience, you refuse to respond because the rest of us are hostile to you?

Perhaps that’s how gay folks feel in Adventist communities that call them depraved, headed to hell, and carnal.

I’m hoping that you can express empathy but I’m not surprised that you find it difficult to interact. I’m saddened by that.

You are an integral part of our community here at Spectrum (an actual Spectrumite!). Why let this issue intimidate you? Are you here to “convince” us or to create community through conversation?


(Tim Teichman) #521

Oh let’s not get too far into the weeds. It’s enough to know that creation took exactly 6 days, where three of them somehow happened before God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night…” So, what separated the day and the night before the sun and the moon were affixed to the firmament (that those scientists insist does not exist)? Oh, wait, there I go asking questions again. Tisk tisk.

(Steve Mga) #522

I printed it off for myself. Thanks!

(Kim Green) #523

"Oh, wait, there I go asking questions again."

It’s really has been a problem with you…but I do hope that you don’t expect real answers. :rofl:

(George Tichy) #524

It seems that @timteichman will never learn to stay out of trouble. I wonder if it is some kind of obsessional disorder that makes the person to insist in asking questions to Adventists even though answers are never produced. It only makes him new enemies… :innocent:

(Kim Green) #525

As my dear grandmother would say:
“Ask me no questions and I will tell you no lies.” Simple, no? :rofl:

(Elmer Cupino) #526


For instance to me stroke is just a 6 letter word spelled STROKE. For a neurologist who knows the epidemiology, etiology, pathophysiology, diagnostic criteria, treatment intervention and prognosis, stroke carries a deeper meaning. Another example would be the word, “fool.” To a clown, the meaning means job security, to a surgeon it might just be a 4 letter word spelled FOOL. However, to a professional mental health worker, @GeorgeTichy, @cincerity and @pattigrant , the word carries a more serious tone.

(Allen Shepherd) #527

Ok, I will comment. The hostility is there, however, just read some of the posts.

My post here is as a pastor discussing the problems with the flesh, an issue Paul spoke deeply about.

Charles says he lived against his orientation for 25 years or so with difficulties

  1. This example is personal testimony. It is powerful evidence, but is subject to the difficulties with personal insight, the failings of humanity and the problems that all personal testimony has.
  2. It could be countered by a man that has lived in a marriage, against has orientation that had not given up on it.
  3. Such men are subject to severe criticism and scrutiny because they are evidence against the current belief on this. They therefore seldom testify.
  4. This is a matter of the flesh. We are so fortunate to have Paul’s experience described in 2 Cor 12:7-10. to guide us. He had some thing (some even say homosexual orientation) that he wanted God to change, asking three times that it be removed. God said, “My grace is sufficient for you.”
  5. Most of the commenters on this site, and Charles himself was expecting God to change his orientation. That he would become heterosexual in orientation. God did not do that, but Charles lived for 25 years without having gay sex, the thing that God does forbid. God’s grace was sufficient for him the whole time. He says there were problems. None of us have marriages that are free from difficulties, even the most compatible. And people stay married in the most difficult of circumstances.
  6. Charles life for 25 years was covered by God’s grace in his life. That he decided to take up homosexual practice does not prove that God was not able to continue his work of grace, but that Charles’ wife decided to call the marriage off, and Charles decided to act on his orientation.
  7. In a case some years ago, a commenter here was struggling as Charles did. He was married with children, and started to attend gay gatherings etc. I counseled him to stop (I was rebuked by the WebEd for such advice). He was eventually divorced, his wife leaving him as well. If you are diabetic, it is best not to hang around candy stores. It would have been better for him to stop the gay research. I have no judgment to give on the matter, but to say that if you are able to live years against your orientation, it can be continued by God’s grace. I might add that the flesh is a powerful agent. Obese people are only 3% likely to keep the weight off for the rest of their lives. Homosexual orientation might be a bit harder.
  8. The sinful nature is ever with us. We all struggle with something and must be gracious with one another and our struggles. But to excuse the flesh is to allow for sin in the life. The end is death.

This is the argument given in this matter. But there have been well described changes in individuals along the Kinsey scale. It is not immutable.

I might add a bit more of my opinion on orientation. It is clearly not a genetic thing. Genes may influence it, but so does societal acceptance, upbringing and many other things, etc. And people can change back and forth along the scale.

However, once one has settled into a certain outlook, it is difficult to change. I believe it was Yarhouse that said a homosexual that had been practicing for years was very unlikely to change, while one who was very motivated and had had little experience, was quite able to (I think Charels would fit here. He went for years without gay sex). Behavioral modification does happen, not just here but in other behaviors as well.

Charles did not change. That is the way is was. God’s grace carried him through years of struggle. It is available for us as well.


(Kim Green) #528

Allen, at what point does one continue in a marriage that is damaging to the individual? Is simple depression enough…or does it have to develop into a full blown depressive disorder in order for it to be deemed unhealthy? How damaging does a marriage have to be before you, as a Pastor, would counsel them to consider leaving or ending a marriage…or should they should continue on despite all??

I know that you would like the simple answer to be that “God’s grace” is going to be enough and magically the marriage is going to work out. This is why you are speaking from a Pastor’s view…not a mental health provider.

BTW…when you can “give-up” your orientation- let me know. We both know that you can’t (and you won’t) so it is hypocritical to expect another human being to do the same. The more you insist that it can and should happen, the more incredulous (and ridiculous) it looks. Ends up looking like another religious “apologetic” to the “problem of homosexuality” (and it is).

@elmer_cupino @GeorgeTichy @CharliePerth

(David) #529

Narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life. (Matt. 7:14)


Meaning in the context of this discussion…???