Homosexuality: Are We Cloaking Bigotry with Scripture?

(Patrick Travis) #551

I dont live in an alternate universe but the one God placed me in. My freedom of choice is when called of the HS to accept Christ to decide if I will accept and follow, not make new rules and stipulations. Again, simply attend a fellowship that accepts my view. Why not?

(Elmer Cupino) #552

If Paul the apostle had your conviction, where would Christianity be?

(Patrick Travis) #553

I have the view and conviction on these issues as would Paul, I believe. I also believe a large part of Christianity does. Basically Elmer you are seeing a dividing line on these issues by biblical interpretation methods. The ones since the Protestant Reformation vs. Modernism/liberal theology. I am not referring to SDA. They are a drop of sand in the equation .

(Kim Green) #554

"But to say I choose the ones is ridiculous. This is what the thread is about."

Not ridiculous…I have been on this site for a long time and have probably read most of what you have written about through many years. Yes, this article is about homosexuality and scripture, etc., but you choose to write and engage more one this topic (and women’s ordination) than any other. Which strongly indicates that you care a lot more about this particular “sin”. Somehow, I strongly doubt that you would be inspired to write about gluttony and sloth in such an impassioned way.

"Do you? How would we know who does? What is your judgement on the matter? “How do yo read?” as Jesus said."

No, I absolutely don’t speak for God and I don’t want to. I believe that through the guidance of the Holy Spirit and what I believe the Bible says- that these are my guides. I absolutely believe that no church represents God either.

Any more questions?

(Elmer Cupino) #555

Didn’t Paul undo God’s specific command for flesh circumcision, supposedly an everlasting covenant? Paul was able to articulate a more relevant formulation of circumcision, one that resonated across all domains that made Christianity inclusive to all.

(Patrick Travis) #556

Elmer, I previously mentioned Paul was talking of a physical state that the OT used as a external sign of spiritually belonging to the covenant people.
There is no need for the NT church to practice because the interest is circumcision of the heart.
Circumcision, foods, drinks, days, moons are not placed on the gentiles accepting Christ.
Again, behavior described against all forms of sexual immorality and other behaviors is commanded of the NT church.i.e. Rom.1.
I have my issues and temptations. I am not free to make my own “rules” of behavior.
I am not condemning anyone, that is for God alone to do. But, the faithful pastor must say what one believes scripture says on any subject. The Christian community judges that for truthfulness. If one church disagrees dont belittle them, simply choose another.

(Elmer Cupino) #557

Two important things to consider:

  1. The need not to practice flesh circumcision as commanded by God was a result of someone being convicted to go against the common knowledge that was found to be shallow and discriminatory. We all reaped it’s benefits.

  2. In reading Acts 15 during the heated conversation between Paul and Peter over circumcision, no one told anyone to “simply choose another” church.

Your opinion?

(Patrick Travis) #558

There isnt but one true church of Christ. Especially in the early church. It is the “invisible church” not a physical building or organization/ denomination. Paul knew there would be divisions. He said fine. See which will be approved of God.
I dont recall LGBT being on the agenda. :wink:

(Elmer Cupino) #559

It is for this reason that I choose to remain SDA. Not for its the doctrines, but because of its culture and the fellowship that I have developed and acquired all my growing years. As it is in the practice of child and adolescent psychiatry, I have never advised any child to leave the family nor have the parents abandon their child over a developmental issue.

Besides, God moves in mysterious ways and when the younger generation take over the leadership helms at the GC, changes are bound to happen. I have that hope and dream. My father paid the ultimate price working for this church. I cannot give up, abandon and walk out on his legacy.

(Elmer Cupino) #560
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Isn’t this a convincing reason that we only find what we look for? Don’t be seduced by the superficial . The deeper issues are the empathy and compassion that Paul shown he had for others. These are the driving traits that should underlie christianity.

(Patrick Travis) #561

I know what you mean. I am a 5th generation SDA.
I presently fed better, in my view, elsewhere. By all means I wouldn’t tell someone to leave if they can live in the present circumstances and grow.
If they cant and feel they are spitting in the wind there are other things worse than seeking another fellowship.
Let each be convinced in his/her own mind.
Enjoying the civil conversation Elmer. Avoiding differences heals nothing but creates more festering!

(Patrick Travis) #562

Acts 15 didnt have LGBT on the agenda. I dont find any NT scripture in support of “behaviors.”
This was my intent.
Paul did give hints on slavery in Philemon. I believe women’s ordination is culturally guided but feel it is necessary for women to understand the creation order in not seeking to rule over the man. They can serve beside each other I believe in a beneficial way.

(Elmer Cupino) #563

It was not the concrete issues but the abstract presence of empathy and compassion that Paul showed others that made him invincible and convincing. Empathy and compassion underlie our behaviors. You can take that to the bank.

(Patrick Travis) #564

I do not have the liberty to have empathy and compassion concerning church membership and behavior where God has not directed it in His Word, if I am a faithful pastor or Christian.
In Society and family I have some in the LGBT community that I respect and in some cases love. We can have empathy, love and compassion without accepting things that make either of us uncomfortable. That is the true meaning of tolerance.
You can bank on that also.

(Elmer Cupino) #565
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I disagree.

That was my thought before medical school. I have abandoned that thought after being in mental health going 30 years. I believe one cannot have empathy without feeling uncomfortable. The key is how to contain and manage our sense of being uncomfortable without losing our sense of self and keeping our psychological borders intact. Isn’t this what Jesus experienced in the garden when he pleaded to his father not to abandon him?

(Steve Mga) #566

Elmer – can you expand on THAT thought a little more?

(Patrick Travis) #567

I do have empathy and feelings of sorrow for some of the things they are experiencing.
Christ had a sense of separation from the Father for the sins of the world that were to be placed on Him.
The Father never forsook Christ or abandoned Him when he was on the cross and accomplished the work He was sent to do as a propitiation for our sins. “For this I came into the world.” Amazing Grace!

(Elmer Cupino) #568

The ability to listen to a person unload their burden, feel their pain and uncertainties and still hold true to who they are marks true empathy. Those who are unable to do so lose their psychological borders and merge their self with the other person. So now instead of being able to draw the person out of their miseries, there are now two people who feel miserable. And on and on and on until they are large enough to call constitute a church.

What do you say George? @GeorgeTichy

(Kim Green) #569

Patrick, what drew you to the denomination that you are in after leaving Adventism?

(Steve Mga) #570

I have had a number of “friends” who have various “Levels” of mismanagement in
their lives. It DOES take a certain amount of setting boundaries for oneself in order
to manage to continue being their “friend”.
Several have even been in and out of jail for various periods of time. Have had my
own personal “Jail Ministry” thanks to the Post Office.
My last friend that had to be sent to Prison finally found Christ with his Bible. Sent
me several letters. For about 4 years had been taking him off an on to a Sunday
church as he would allow. Was Gay, so that was an extra issue. The day before his
53rd birthday, an undiagnosed aneurysm ruptured. They found him unresponsive in
his cell. This was 2 years ago. I still miss him. Was difficult attending his funeral and
saying the goodbyes. I guess it might have been partially because I had been through
so much with him, drugs and all that controlled his mismanagement. He had wonderful
Have several others friends, but not the emotional energy for them as I did toward him.
I believe the emotional drain and the “setting limits” on myself are the most difficult.
Seeing the Potentials of abilities they have, but having to allow them to be “them”.