How Healthy is Adventist Eschatology? A Missiological Imbalance (Part 6)

(George Davidovich) #181

Sorry to hear you say, sincerely, not sarcastically. I am part of the SDA church, and I don’t claim to observe it properly, especially since the closest part of my family to me is not a baptized or official member of the church, which has its challenges sometimes.
I personally have found it to be a true blessing ever since I decided to go back ty SDA roots. There were many years during which the weekend were spent fixing and enhancing our earthly home(s), shopping, and playing competitive sports, Etc. and as Sunday night rolled in and considered going back to the office on Monday I was physically and emotinally spent.

At the beginning I will admit it was an effort, I had to really work hard at “giving up” what most of us consider “our time”, let alone leading my wife and growing boys into it this new concept . But eventually the benefits of literal physical rest, making a point to consider beging together, and enjoy things spiritual, began to show in how we lived as a family, and our being prepared to tackle the new week.
Now that our sons are gown up it is a blessing having planted this seed into them and seeing them enjoy their own family and friends i a different way.

(Cfowler) #182

Exodus 16-17 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever:

The Sabbath was given to Israel (stated many times in the Old Testament).

Ezekiel 20:11-20, 12 Also I gave them my Sabbaths as a sign between us,

Exodus 31:13 13 “Say to the the Israelites, ‘You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come,

(Steve Mga) #183

George –
I would like to introduce you and your family to this person.
A.J. Swoboda, a pastor and teaches at Portland [Ore.] Seminary and Fuller
Theological Seminary, among others.
His book – “Subversive Sabbath” – The surprising Power of Rest in a non-stop
world, [2018].
It is his own experience of Finding and Developing a Sabbath as a very busy pastor,
whose busiest day was Sunday.
I bought mine on Amazon.

I believe you will find his teaching on Sabbath is even SUPERIOR to our own SDA
teachings that we have in our printed literature on “the sabbath”.

(Cfowler) #184

I absolutely believe that attending church, resting, taking a hike, whatever you find spiritually beneficial for you is just fine…I really do! It’s when observing Saturday as the Sabbath is taken even further to be the end time test. That the test of true believers isn’t about Christ, but about a day. Then to go on to the teaching that Christians who attend church on Sunday, are/or will receive the mark of the beast, that Sunday church attendance is the Mark of the Beast. This is where it really goes off the rails.

To reiterate, if Saturday/Sabbath is beneficial for you and your family, I would never take issue with that.

(Frankmer7) #185

Yes, Steve. I was simply responding to all you said concerning what sabbath keeping is invested with regarding redemption and freedom, and compared the repeated celebration of the Lord’s Supper with that. You initially said nothing about rest.





The problem is that there is no proof of this kind of calculation whatsoever in the Bible. After all, it is possible to keep a regular 7 day cycle even with a lunar calendar, that is, without resetting the clock at each new moon in the same way as we do today with our calendar with which we don’t restart the counting of the week at each beginning of a month.

I am not saying that you are automatically wrong here but, as far as I know, there is no place in the Bible where we see God telling the people to count the sabbath days the way you said it. God was always picky about the weekly sabbath day and the only thing we know for sure is that it was supposed to come after six consecutive days. This is why the fourth commandment speaks of the seventh day. The commandment doesn’t say, the seventh day counting from the beginning of each month (lunar or not).

Hmm… This is a fascinating question!

(Sirje) #187

Proof? There is a “holy day”, a “festival of the new moon” in the Bible. Isaiah 66 says in Israel restored (SDA’ believe this refers to the “new earth”) will be keeping Sabbath AND the new moon holy day into eternity. Logic tells us the two are related. Add to that all the other references in the Bible where new moon is not mentioned without adding “AND SABBATH” in the same breath. What was the purpose of the “new moon”? The Jews use their calendar, which is based on the new moon, to set all their other holy days - Passover etc. They set the beginning of each of their months, based on the appearance of the new moon - everything except the Sabbath? Why is that? Logic tells us, if there is a month, then it contains weeks. The Sabbath is part of a week - without a week, there is no Sabbath as the seventh day of a week.

Adventists believe the Sabbath is perpetual since creation; that somehow, someone kept track of the weekly cycle, counting six days and then Sabbath, until the children of Israel ended up at the base of Mount Sinai, WITHOUT ONE MENTION OF A SABBATH IN THE ENTIRE BOOK OF GENESIS - from creation to Moses, covering the stories of Noah - Abraham - Isaac - Jacob -Joseph - the story of Moses in Pharo’s court - the plagues of Egypt - the exodus - no mention of the Sabbath.

It is assumed that the Sabbath is to be kept by Gentiles because the NT doesn’t mention it directly - that everyone took it for granted that they keep it - proof by omission. Yet we find it difficult to accept that, after God told Israel to use the sun and the moon in the sky for setting “times and seasons”, He didn’t mean weeks of seven days, ending with the Sabbath - that somehow the Sabbath calculation was kept some other way - by everyone counting by seven’s since creation week, a perpetual series of sevens. It boggles the mind!

(reliquum) #188

It does seem you are saying you believe you are automatically right, however. That, to me, seems the default, and faulty, SDA position. That default position may make the search for truth impossible. When one is so afraid of not being right and his beliefs, he will too-long defend and indefensible and potential untruth.

(Tim Teichman) #189

Why is it lame? Your follow on for this derogatory and rather bitchy statement to my sincere post doesn’t support what you claim. At least, I don’t see it.

Yes, it’s ironic and our pastors do too. But what’s your point?

The commandments make no such assertion. Keeping the Sabbath “holy” is always defined as resting / not working. Defined as the opposite of work. Nothing else.

I’ve never met a saint, or worshiped with one, so I wouldn’t know.

(James Peterson) #190

I’m sorry.

All my friends are saints and the Sabbath day affords us the opportunity to REST in God as per the 4th. We worship, fellowship and study together without worrying about the demands of work and the work week. Ephesians 4:7-16

I hope one day you find such REST.


(Cfowler) #191

And you know that he hasn’t, how? Maybe he’s more rested than you? :wink:

(Steve Mga) #192

Paul, the Apostle,
calls ALL the Members of the Church – SAINTS, per King James Version.
Other translations might use HOLY PEOPLE instead.
Romans 1:7, Ephesians 1:1, 2Cor 1:1, Phil. 1:1, Col. 1:2.

So, YES, ANY CHRISTIAN may be addressed as a SAINT.
OR, if one does NOT like that, just call any Christian a HOLY PERSON.

(George Davidovich) #193

The scriptural record we do have however from both, Exodus and the NT, is that the Israelites were never asked to gather manna for 3 or 4 days, but only for 2 days (on the 6th day), nor speecial gathering periods of only 1 or 2 days plus there were sabbaths on the 8th, 15th 22nd, 29th of the month, Etc. and also the 14th day being called preparation day Matt. and John (Friday), which doesn’t jibe with a lunar Sabbath calendar.



Two mistakes in your statements:

  1. I never said that I was automatically right (I don’t know how you got that idea).
  2. Even if I did (which is not the case), generalizing my supposed position and posit that it is the SDA position is altogether erroneous…


I am not sure to understand your point here. Can you elaborate?

(George Davidovich) #196

Sorry, I was referring to your earlier correct response to @Sirje concerning lacking biblical references to lunar sabbath calculation. Not only do we not have any, as you said, but we also have biblical calculations that prove that the Sabbath they observed was NOT calculated from new moons.

(Cfowler) #197

What do you think about the Jews in Israel today, who calculate their religious holidays by the lunar calendar?

(James Peterson) #198

I like how you said it boggles the mind. It does.

Actually, the Hebrews’ calendar began from the time they left Egypt. God instituted it. He derived it directly from the Egyptian calendar ::

Now the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying, This month shall be your beginning of months; it shall be the first month of the year to you. Speak to all the congregation of Israel, saying: On the tenth of this month every man shall take for himself a lamb, according to the house of his father, a lamb for a household.” Exod. 12:1-3


(Tim Teichman) #199

The quesiton could fairly be made a little more forceful:

What do you think about the Jews, who have always and continue to calculate their religious holidays by the lunar calendar they have always used, as prescribed in the bible?

(George Davidovich) #200

[quote=“cfowler, post:197, topic:17321”]
Whar do you think about the Jews in Israel today, /quote]
I guess I don’t see the relevancy unless you are m9re specific.