How Healthy is Adventist Eschatology? A Missiological Imbalance (Part 6)

(Sirje) #201

Yes, but that just proves all those people in Genesis did not keep the Sabbath since they didn’t have any way of calculating it. There is no mention of the Sabbath in Genesis.

(George Davidovich) #202

[quote=“Sirje, post:201, topic:17321”]
All those people in Genesis did not keep the Sabbath since they didn’t have any way of calculating it./quote]
You speak of logic a lot, does it make sense to you Sirje, that the God who created the Sabbath and called it holy, then used that day to commune with His creation may have communicated to Adam and Eve its purpose? How abour during their regular communication where God (Jesus) would come and visit with them in the Garden. Do tou think He may have put His law into their hearts? Scriptures don’t say anything about Adam or Eve breaking any law other than eating from the forbidden tree, can you see how they may have kept it?. How did Cain know he had done a terrible thing when he killed his brother?
Is it logical for you to think that since Enoch and Noah are said ro have walked with God may have kept His law, including the Sabbath? How abour Abraham of whom it is specifically said he did?
You take some big leaps of faith when you assume things that are not written anywhere, but why not about God’s law?

(Sirje) #203

??? There is no mention of the Sabbath before Exodus, whatever the reason. When Moses gave the 10 Commandments he also told the Israelites how to keep the Sabbath and how to keep track of it in a world without clocks and calendars. Makes sense to me.

(James Peterson) #204

Indeed there is none except at the beginning which we all know about.

Secondly, as it is said in Exodus, God established the Hebrew calendar, lifting it from the Egyptians. And the ancient Egyptians had a lunar calendar, according to Wikipedia, which was used for religious purposes for the priesthood. Lunar calendars obviously lend themselves to weeks (from the phases of the moon).

But God did something strange. He brought the Hebrews out on the 14th day of their first month and the second religious commandment He gave them was the weekly Sabbath which they seemed NOT to have known about at all. Later, when He speaks to them from Mt. Sinai, He unhinges it from its lunar moorings and and grounds it in His own pattern of “work” in creation.

To show that they began counting in sevens after that (without consideration for months and/or moons), look at the way He established the Day of Pentecost. “And you shall count for yourselves from the day after the Sabbath, from the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering: seven Sabbaths shall be completed. Count fifty days to the day after the seventh Sabbath; then you shall offer a new grain offering to the Lord.” Lev. 23:15-16

In other words, the Sabbath of the 4th was NEVER a lunar artifact in reality, but the end of a never ending cycle of weeks since the first day of the first month of their deliverance from bondage.


(George Davidovich) #205

Sorry see previous, using rhe phone doesnr work so welll

(Sirje) #206

OK, now we’re getting into all kinds of speculation. The point is we don’t have a record of a Sabbath being kept before Moses. The Babylonians did keep a sabbath with a different purpose, however.

(George Davidovich) #207

So you are saying, since there were no Ten Commandments recorded before Cain murdered Abel, it was ok for him to do so, he just felt bad he did it? that is too much of a speculation?

(Tim Teichman) #208

No it’s not there either. There is:

“By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. Then God blessed the [that] seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.”

God blessed one day, the seventh day after the six days of creation. There is no mention that any other day (like seven days later) was also blessed. There is no mention of the Sabbath.

The first time the word Sabbath is used in the bible is in Exodus 16 in the story of the manna.

(James Peterson) #209

“By the seventh day God had finished the work He had been doing; so on the seventh day He RESTed from all His work. Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it He RESTed from all the work of creating that He had done.” Gen. 2:2-3

All for your information and guidance.


(Sirje) #210

The “nation” of Israel was born after the exodus from Egypt. Before that (Cain and Abel) there was no written law (tables of stone) or anywhere else.

Romans 2: For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law: …For when Gentiles (non-Jews - Cain and Abel were not Jews) who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them.

No one keeps the Sabbath instinctively. The Sabbath didn’t exist before Moses. If it did, it’s not written down anywhere. The Sabbath was given to Israel as a special sign between God and Israel.

(George Tichy) #211

Very interesting point. I never thought about it this way, but you are right.

It seems that the main problem has been that some people are not focusing on what was actually written, but rather on the interpretation of what was written, and on suppositions about what was written. This kind of distortion makes it impossible to come to an agreement.

This is why I insist on “Sola Scriptura.” Those who need to “interpret” what is written, and those who use the SOP as “the final word,” can’t tolerate the Sola Scriptura principle.

(James Peterson) #212

That’s a VERY good point and I admire you for taking that stand.

For example, consider Gen. 2:2-3, “By the seventh day God had finished the work He had been doing; so on the seventh day He RESTed from all His work. Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it He RESTed from all the work of creating that He had done.

No one needs to see the actual word “SABBATH” spelled out there to know that God was establishing the seventh day as the Sabbath of the LORD GOD. One does not bless something that is past, nor make it holy – unless it were coming again. And we know this is the correct way and the only way of seeing it, because God Himself said so.

If you turn away your foot from THE SABBATH, from doing your pleasure ON MY HOLY DAY, and call THE SABBATH a delight, THE HOLY DAY OF THE LORD honorable, and shall honor Him, not doing your own ways, nor finding your own pleasure, nor speaking your own words, …” Is. 53:13


(Tim Teichman) #213

I do. I need to see it. It’s not there. There is no Sabbath until Exodus. None of the patriarchs ever kept a Sabbath, ever practiced a routine day of rest, ever discussed it, and it was not part of any prior Covenant with them.

In Exodus it is given for two reasons, depending on the version of the commandments you read: 1) Because you were slaves in Egypt, a day of rest that you didn’t get as a slave, or 2) As a way to help you remember the creation story, and God’s rest.

Except that #2 above was added to Exodus 20 after is was originally written, very likely to harmonize it with Genesis, which was written after Exodus. Originally there was no mention of remembering creation.

(James Peterson) #214

Very well then. Good for you.

I feel so sorry for Enoch, that he had to live 365 years without eating a morsel of food. It is NOT spelled out in the Holy Scriptures that he ate. No wonder “he was not”. He became so thin that he disappeared into air.


(George Davidovich) #215

That is precisely what my question to you was and you seem to behoing around it. So it makes sense to you that God created a lawless world? How do you explain then Gen 26:5 “Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.”

(Sirje) #216

Did you miss the part I quoted fro Paul. Before the commandments were given to the NATION of Israel, the judgment seems to be based on natural instincts and conscience - Romans 2.

(Cfowler) #217

I was referring to the Jews in Israel today. They determine the date of their holy days by the lunar calendar. Why would they do that, or where would they have gotten that idea, if not from their own history of using the moon to determine months and days?

(Frankmer7) #218

Paul also says in Romans that sin reigned from Adam to Moses… before the law was given. There was a time before the covenant from Sinai where there was no knowledge of Torah or the ten commandments. Adventists just can’t admit or even read this from the NT.

Paul likens that to Gentiles of his time living apart from the law, but still having conscience. IOW, no one is without excuse. Nor did the law, or putting people under its letter ever solve the problem. In fact, it made it worse. Why do we insist on bringing the letter in through the back door? All because of the Sabbath…


(Sirje) #219

For Adventists the Sabbath is the main issue. It will be defended above and beyond everything else. If the Sabbath were to be put into its rightful place, the house of cards comes down, and we will be like every other church - no more assurance of perfection through its remnant status. This can never change. It’s a mindset from which everything else in the Bible derives its meaning. That place is supposed to be Christ’s.

(Cfowler) #220

Absolutely, Sirje!

Sabbath is in place of Christ…always. It’s the raison d’etre. :anguished: