How Healthy is Adventist Eschatology? A Missiological Imbalance (Part 6)


#242

Of course, it was a sign of the covenant between God and His people. But the new covenant is also for God’s people, except that, this time, God’s people is composed of the Jews plus all the people grafted onto them (like Paul would say). And the base of this new covenant is the same one as the old one, that is, the Ten Commandments which were within the ark of the covenant. The only difference between the old covenant and the new one, according to God, is that the law was written on tables of stone in the first covenant whereas in the new covenant, the same law is written in the hearts. This is not disputable either.

No, I am not ashamed. This is why I observe it.

God gives us the first six days to do what we have to do. But there is only one day that God calls His Day and it is the seventh day. No other day will do.

We say that all days are His but many refuse to observe the only day He says is His. Don’t you think it is strange?


#243

This is in Exodus 16. There, we see that God asked Israel to observe the sabbath.

The giving of the law at Mt. Sinai occurred later and is found in Exodus 20.


(Cfowler) #244

So, people keeping the Sabbath doesn’t predate Exodus, correct? The Law wasn’t before the Exodus, right?


#245

I don’t mean to be harsh or insulting, @Nymous

But…didn’t you guys expect to be in the Kingdom long ere this?

Could there possibly be something fundamentally amiss in Adventist understanding?

An entire sea of water can’t sink a ship unless it gets inside.

Your ship is listing and taking on water fast!

Maybe your doctrinal structure is not as watertight as you imagine?

Do Adventists dare pause in their apologetics long enough to ask a few fundamental questions?

No time to burn!

Meant friendly.


(Cfowler) #246

No, I don’t think it is strange at all.

16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

I won’t judge you for attending church on Saturday. :slightly_smiling_face:


#247

What do you mean exactly?


(Cfowler) #248

Some people claim that the Sabbath was kept from the beginning, all the way back to Eden.


#249

No offense taken… No problem… :slight_smile:

Of course, it is possible. This is why it is always good to share what we think in the market of ideas.

This is possible but the same question can be asked of anybody. Personally, I am always looking for a deeper understanding so I don’t mind studying what other people may have discovered.

I cannot speak for other Adventists… but hopefully… :smile:

Thanks…


(Sirje) #250

@Nymous

Ok, guys, this discussion has gone as far as it can go. I’m going to have to sign off. We will not come to any meaningful conclusion. “There is much to learn; and much to unlearn”.

Peace


#251

Well, the Bible says that the God blessed the seventh day, sanctified it, and rested on that day. So, from the Bible, we know that at least one person kept the Sabbath: God (which is not nothing).

And it was done before sin, and before there was any Jew.

After that, the explicit command to keep the Sabbath appears in Exodus 16, before the giving of the law, and then in Exodus 20 when God made a covenant with Israel.

In between, that is, between Genesis 2 and Exodus 16, there is nothing explicit. But is there something implicit? Maybe…

In Genesis 2, we see God resting on the seventh day, that is, keeping the Sabbath. Is it conceivable that God would rest on the Sabbath day but not the man and the woman made according to his image?

Also, in Genesis 26:5, we see God saying that Abraham was keeping God’s commandments, Statutes, and laws. This shows that God gave Abraham commandments and laws, or that Abraham knew them. There is nothing showing that Abraham kept the Sabbath but the Sabbath existed already.

Then comes Exodus and we see that the Sabbath is still God’s holy day and God asked His people to keep this very day.


(James Peterson) #252

One of the hardest things SDA have to learn is that there is nothing like a holy day, a holy clock, a holy time. Holy days, clocks, times and places are symptoms of benign idolatry which, if left unchecked, would grow into full-blown malignancy. SDA in Somoa who insist on keeping “Sunday” holy have entered that phase. Mat. 24:1-2

The 4th is NOT making a particular 24-hour of the week suddenly exceptionally holy in and of itself. Rather, it comments on the cycle of work and rest for the NEW nation of Israel. The cycle had already been instituted for the first time to Israel as a nation in Exod. 16:23, “Then [Moses] said to [the Elders], “This is what the Lord has said: Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the Lord.

The 4th gives the reason for the holiday (a commemoration of creation) and more importantly warns about acting against the spirit of the holiday by what may be expressed in modern terms as “revelry and forgetfulness of God: like drinking, dancing, building, calculating your taxes, etc., etc., etc.” There’s no need for a list for those who love God and are wise. Mark 2:23-28


To apply all this: let us suppose that the US Congress changes the calendar so that Friday January 20, 2017 (the day Donald Trump was inaugurated as president) was made YEAR 1, DAY 1 and Sunday. Then “Thursday” would become the seventh day of the new weekly cycle.

The Commandment of God is flexible enough to adapt to this change because it is NOT about a particularly holy particular 24-hour day too holy to mingle with the other six days, but about the cycle of work and rest and His people not descending into decadent frivolity on their day off.

Only the childish would throw a tantrum, bawl their head off and roll around uncontrollably on the floor for lack of a particular piece of candy.

I AM TIRED.

REALLY.

///


(George Davidovich) #253

To you as well Sirje


(Cfowler) #254

God ceased from His work of creating…it was done, finished.

Not in the previous hundreds of years before giving the law. It seems that God was preparing them for what was to come…manna, gathering enough for 2 days, and not having any on the Sabbath, which was to come. This was a whole new way for them. It’s interesting that in the many hundreds of years before the Exodus, there was no mention of anyone keeping the Sabbath. Offerings, priests, sacrifices, circumcision…these were all there, but not the Sabbath.

We don’t know exactly what those were. Once again no mention of Sabbath, but many other spiritual/religious ideas that were being followed or performed.

We won’t agree, clearly. And that’s okay. You view the Sabbath as something that Gentile/Christians must continue to do, I see it as the sign of the covenant God made with Israel only. The silence regarding Sabbath is almost thundering in it’s absence after Jesus’ life, death and resurrection. There were no instructions, no mention of Gentiles keeping it, nothing. It seems to have vanished. Unlike the mentioning of the other 9 commandments.

Thanks for the discussion…


#255

You are quite welcome… :slight_smile:


(Frankmer7) #256

This, Carol!

Even Bacchiocchi wrote about how to keep the Sabbath properly. Yet, there is not a single shred of instruction about this for Gentile believers in the NT. Nothing!

Thanks…

Frank


(Tim Teichman) #257

I’ve never read that in the bible. Where do you see it? I don’t see any stories or teachings of the patriarchs regarding a sabbath. Not one mention of it.


#258

I was not speaking of the patriarchs but of Israel.

The story is found in Exodus 16. In this chapter, we see that God asks Israel to keep the sabbath. What is interesting is the fact that Israel is asked to do that before the giving of the law at Mt. Sinai which is found in Exodus 20.

So, before the covenant was even established between God and Israel, they were asked to keep the sabbath.

This shows that the covenant didn’t make the sabbath day holy, it was already holy before.

This shows also that those who say that the sabbath is just for the Jews because of the covenant established between God and Israel are wrong since Israel was asked to keep it even outside of the covenant.


(Cfowler) #259

At the end of Exodus 16 we see…

34 As the Lord commanded Moses, Aaron put the manna with the tablets of the covenant law, so that it might be preserved. 35 The Israelites ate manna forty years, until they came to a land that was settled; they ate manna until they reached the border of Canaan.

This is what the Bible says…many times. The Sabbath is the sign of the Covenant God made with Israel.

12 Then the Lord said to Moses, 13 “Say to the Israelites, ‘You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the Lord, who makes you holy.

14 “‘Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it is to be put to death; those who do any work on that day must be cut off from their people. 15 For six days work is to be done, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day is to be put to death. 16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. 17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’”

It seems that you keep ignoring what Scripture says. This is stated in other texts too, in the OT.


#260

Your point being?

Carol,

Who did God speak to? His people.

God asked Israel to keep the sabbath because only them were His people. The other nations were not part of His people so they were not required to keep the sabbath.

Now, forward a few thousands years. Who do we find being part of God’s people? The Gentiles who accepted Jesus and were added (Paul used the term “grafted”) to Israel (we have to remember that the first Christians were Jews, after all).

Was this predicted by God? Yes, it was.

It was God who spoke of the new covenant and He spoke about it in the Old Testament. And, of course, He knew that the new covenant was not just about Israel but also about the Gentiles who would come later at the time of Jesus.

So, what did God said about this new covenant? that He would write the law in “their hearts” and that “they shall be his people” (Jeremiah 31:31-33, Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16). In Jeremiah 31:32, God mentions the first covenant (for which God wrote the law with his own finger) and in verse 33, He mentions the new covenant and shows what is different from the first one: this time the law will be written by God (again) but in the hearts.

This is the major difference between the first covenant and new covenant: whereas the law (that is, the Ten Commandments) was written on tables of stone by God in the old covenant, in the new covenant, the same law would be written, by God also, in the hearts (this time, the Gentiles would be involved).

Who is ignoring what Scripture says? For example, who is trying to turn the Ten Commandments into the Nine Commandments, ignoring the fourth commandment? Certainly not me…


(reliquum) #261

@nymous, typically when someone says “I’m not trying to”, they mean they actually are exactly doing so. Your protestation that you are not saying what your caboose “but” seems to be reiterating is, well, telling. You are actually saying it, and you co-opt all of writ to back it up

Like i suggested, the default position of adventism is the premise it is always right (or at least righter than those sunday-keeeping meat eater wine bibbers)

Even if we are “more right” due to our adherence to doctrinal distinctives, we fail with the humility test.

I’m going to employ your technique here, and say I’m not trying to personally single you out, however I do intend to suggest that that the demeanor you seem to display is endemic in our institutional denominational corp. I wish it were not so, and I suspect I have some pretty good company in said wish…

(edit to add, not sure how the quote link brought that article in-pls ignore)