How Healthy is Adventist Eschatology? A Missiological Imbalance (Part 6)


(Frankmer7) #101

Yes, legally speaking, that is correct. But, in Paul’s letters, especially Romans, sin is portrayed as much more than a legal problem. It is a personified power that kills. Gentiles without the Law are just as powerless and enslaved to it as Jews are under the Law…there is no difference.

His point about the Law, is that it actually exacerbates the situation, turning sin into transgression of a legal norm, and actually inciting sin, making the situation even more hopeless. This was Paul’s response to the theology that the law was the antidote to sin, and the attempt to bring Gentiles under the authority and life of the written code. Paul was saying that the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. However, he wasn’t saying that there was no such thing as sin, or no effect of sin without the Law. Gentiles still had consciences, were still as culpable as Jews, and still died, death being the result of sin. His historical example is that sin and death still reigned from Adam to Moses…without the Law. Hence the need for the Messiah for all, Jews under the Law, and Gentiles apart from the Law…there is no difference.

You simply ignore the idea that he is covering all holy times here…Paul has clearly borrowed a formulaic expression from the OT that does so. It means yearly, monthly, weekly holy times. The phrase wouldn’t even make sense and be redundant according to your reckoning: yearly, monthly, yearly?? This is all because you can’t admit that the weekly sabbath is included in this argument in Colossians. The context demands this to be read as such.

Secondarily, it is also tied to the fact that you don’t admit any difference between the typical Christian interpretations of the Law and its atomization into discreet parts, moral, ceremonial, etc., as opposed to the Jewish integration of the whole thing as one entity…Torah. Paul was a Jew, who spoke of the Law in the same way. The Torah was the Torah. It was the identifying mark in the world of Jews and their covenant status. Additionally, the three most visible covenant badges were, circumcision, food laws…and sabbath. Paul is constantly saying that Gentile believers can’t be forced into this covenant or adopt those outward signs as proof of belonging.

In the end, Colossians is a variation on a familiar theme with its own unique twists…but the seventh day sabbath is simply in this passage…try as you might to deny it. Just as an aside…most reputable scholars see it that way.

You’re equating other non Adventist Christians who have been born again into Christ, been baptized into him, and have received the Spirit, with non believers, those who even worship different gods? While not denying that there are good people everywhere, that’s simply outrageous! According to the NT, and Paul’s letters in particular, the only ones with a living hope are believers in Christ!

You’re simply painting in vivid colors why Adventism can’t deal with letters like Galatians, Romans, 2 Cor. 3, and what we’ve been discussing in Col. 2. For you, truly belonging to God doesn’t hinge on Christ, it ultimately hinges on the keeping of the Sabbath, and our own watered down version of keeping the Law.

While other Christian fellowships have their problems, there are many other Christian churches where the members are on fire for Christ, practicing the weightier matters of faithfulness, justice, mercy and love. Their expectations for discipleship far exceed anything I’ve seen in Adventism. Yet, we hinge Christian identity and true belonging on the keeping of the day, while so many of our congregations here are dead or dying. And we’ll turn around and equate them with Pharisees? Please! Wherever Christ is named, and love, mercy and justice are practiced, there he is among them!

I don’t have the time or inclination to continue this discussion any further. Thanks for taking the time. Happy Thanksgiving!

Frank


#102

No problem, Frank. It was a real pleasure. And thank you too for taking the time to read my long comments.

May God richly bless you and your family and have a happy Thanksgiving.


(Frankmer7) #103

Blessings to you, too!

Frank


(George Davidovich) #104

Nymous,
Thank you very much for your patient, pragmatic and objective breakdown of this topic! really enjoyed it and learned from it as wel.


(George Davidovich) #105

Very nice song Cassie and appropriate for today, enjoyed it. Happy Thanksgiving to you


#106

Many blessings to you and to all.

God is good.


(Cfowler) #107

I love it too! Haven’t seen it 10 times, probably 3, but I probably could. :grinning:


(Cfowler) #108

Pssst…it’s always about the Sabbath. Not the Sabbath that Israel actually kept, the seventh day determined by the moon cycles. But, the one on the Gregorian (Roman) calendar, named after Pope Gregory. Kinda funny, really. :grin: :thinking: :sunglasses:


#109

Carol,

First, I would like you to notice that it is also often the people who don’t keep the sabbath who come to the SDA to question or criticize their sabbath keeping.

Second, can you show me from the Bible that Israel kept the seventh day based on the moon cycles? I am interested in what you can present on the subject.


The Failings of Church Bureaucracy
#110

Praise God if I have been useful to you, George.

I thank also those who are willing to engage in the discussion (like Frank, Cassie, Sirje, Carol, Thomas, Elmer, Kim, etc). They also help me in my study of the Bible. Granted, we don’t always see eye to eye but, like they say, iron sharpens irons. So, guys, thank you very much for your interventions.


(Steve Mga) #111

Nymous –
The NEW MOON began the month cycle. 4 weeks of 7 days each.
The new month ALWAYS began in the evening, not the morning.
The new day always began at Sundown, not sunrise. REST, then Work.
Not – Work then Rest.


#112

But do you have a biblical support for what you present? Is there any place in the Bible specifically saying that the sabbath are based on a moon cycle?


(George Davidovich) #113

Steve/Carol
Since we are on this topicc now, are you saying the the Jews kept the moon calendar sabbbaths? and if so, were they following God’'s 7th-day?
@cfowler


(Steve Mga) #114

Read the Laws described in
Exodus
Leviticus
Deuteronomy
They will give you the FORMULA on how to keep up with Sabbath, and
all the other Jewish Festivals and Holy-days. All by the celestial signs.
There were no printed calendars nor watches back then. Perhaps sun dials.

All of these ways of telling “Time” were given by God to Moses.
It is the Rotation of the Earth which gives us the phenomenon of “TIME”.
This is WHY God is Outside of Time.


(Cfowler) #115

George,

Yes, the nation of Israel kept time by the sun, moon and stars. The moon was the monthly time keeper.

Gen 1:14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years,

When I first started to learn about the way of time-keeping, it was hard for me to switch my mind over from our modern way (Gregorian calendar now), to thinking about something so foreign to my 21st century way of thinking. It took a bit of re-thinking to get my mind wrapped around the way that was the original way of keeping track of times.

I’m in and out on the boards for the T’giving holiday. But, I think it is a fascinating topic. I know @timteichman and @Sirje have posted some great links on this topic. Another thing to consider is that Israel still determines their holy days by the lunar calendar. But, for normal day to day activities, they follow the Gregorian calendar, as does most of the world.

@Nymous Would like to follow up on this more later…


(George Davidovich) #116

@niteguy2
Sure Carol, we can follow-up later, I think i’ve read most of what @Sirje has covered in the past and as I mentioned to her earlier in this post, for me the Gregorian calendar is not an issue, the 7th day Sabbath accoring to it, is for practical reasons the Sabbath we have.
On this thread I am curious as to what you and Steve seem to be saying about which Sabbaths Jewish people kept, and I think there are two sets: (1) The 7th-day as defined in the Ten Commandments i.e. an uniterrrupted sequence of 7 days with 6 days of work in between, and (2) the ceremonial Sabbaths.

Deu 4:12 And Jehovah spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of words, but ye saw no form; only ye heard a voice.
Deu 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even the ten commandments ; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
Deu 4:14 And Jehovah commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and ordinances , that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.


(Frankmer7) #117

This is fine, George. But, if Carol and Sirje are correct, we can’t keep pretending that this is the same as the biblical sabbath in Genesis. The idea of tracing an unbroken, calendrical line back to then would be little short of nonsensical. Which would mean that we are not necessarily keeping the same day as that in the creation account itself. Adventism has staked its position very strongly on being faithful to the original, creational blueprint.

Frank


(Steve Mga) #118

Ceremonial SABBATHS –
Think of them as Holidays like we do 4th July, Memorial Day, Thanksgiving, Christmas,
New Year, President’s Day [now, used to be Lincoln’s, Washington].
They had up to 4 Times a Year when they had what we might call – National Campmeeting.
If it was too far to travel, they were to have Regional Campmeetings at those times.
They were COMMANDED to Work.
They were also COMMANDED to Rest, take holidays together as groups of people. Sing,
dance, play music, feast – all in a worshipful way. Praising God for His blessings.
God, the God of Love, is the Only ONE who can COMMAND us to Love God, Love
one another, Love the stranger.


(Tim Teichman) #119

Also @gdavidovic

Here’s a link to a recent post, with several links to more online information:


#120

Steve,

Can you be a little bit more precise? Thanks.