How Healthy is Adventist Eschatology? A Missiological Imbalance (Part 6)

(George Davidovich) #141

Realizing you don’t want to keep discussing this topic anymore, I will just close it as well by pointing out that:

You did not respond to any of my bulleted questions, which were a direct comment to your earlier post


You are making a huge assumption that may not be correct in relation to which Sabbath days Jesus observed - This writing is from Philo Judaeus, from Alexandria a contemporary of Jesus:

“The fourth commandment has reference to the sacred seventh day that it may be passed in a sacred and holy manner. Now some states keep the holy festival only once in the month, counting from the new moon, as a day sacred to the Almighty; ** but the nation of the Jews keeps every seventh day regularly, after each interval of six days **.” (Philo Judaeus, The Decalogue, XX, p.526).

And also:

"But after this continued an uninterrupted festival which thus lasts through all time, there is another celebrated, namely, that of the sacred seventh day after each recurring interval of six days … proclaiming a day of freedom to them also after every space of six days , … having a relaxation every six days …" (Philo Judaeus, The Special Laws, II , XV, sections 56, 66, 67; pp.574,575)

Carol as I pointed earlier to Steve @niteguy2, we should not lump in the Ten Commandments with the ceremonial laws - they were clearly two separate sets as we see in Deut. with different purpose, timing, symbology and even authorship if we consider that these were taught by Moses. A lot of theological error occurs when we do that.

(Sirje) #142

It appears I’m done.

This was not a comparison between a Saturday Sabbath and the lunar Sabbath. It was about a Sabbath kept once a moth as opposed to one “after each interval of six days” - counting from the new moon. That would give them four Sabbaths a month. They were still calculated from the New Moon also called Roch Cadesh. Philo is saying that some kept the Sabbath only once a month (in the Diaspora). Sabbaths were also kept in Babylon even before the Hebrews.

(George Davidovich) #143

it says “every seventh day regurlay” not every seventh day with a montly blank interval of 2 days in between.
** but the nation of the Jews keeps every seventh day regularly, after each interval of six days **.

(Sirje) #144

or search Philo on the Sabbath

The weekly Sabbath, calculated from the New Moon (Roch Cadesh) is regular, every seven day from the initial new moon sighting. Are you worried about the day or two at the end ofd the month? They took care of that as well. Check it out on the internet.

You’re reading too much into the word “regularly”. REGULARLY after the new moon.

(Sirje) #145

In the Bible the “new moon” is associated with the Sabbath pretty consistently: I Sam.20:5 - 2 KINGS 4:23 - Is. 66:23; as well as Col.2:16 in NT. The Bible would not be taking about the new moon in relation to the Sabbath if it was being kept just once a month.


Haven’t commented much in a while mainly due to the repetition of the subject matter along with the replies (not derogatory to this forum, just my tolerence for such) but just curious how someone with such clarity of conviction(s) as to the reasons not to be an SDA club member, that you and Frank are, continue in the context of “we”, i.e. “we club members I continue to prove biblically wrong”? I have asked Frank before and he has acknowledged a struggle there (right Frank?) Just curious.

(Sirje) #147

I have been part of the SDA church since I was 16. Things were simple then. I actually joined because of the Sabbath; but I never heard the clarity of the Gospel until I was wife and mother. Since then I have done a lot of digging on my own; and found that the Bible has a different emphasis from what the church does. When it comes to the Sabbath, I read clearly that Christ is our rest - rest from trying to pull ourselves up to heaven by our bootstraps - keeping this, that, and another thing. The NT is about Christ as the focal point of our faith; not the keeping of a day that pointed forward to His rest.

As someone said, the fourth commandment simply tells us to rest after six days of work. The OT tells us that rest came at a specific time When Moses presented it. Apparently we don’t pay attention to such details, but that’s OK since we’re not saved by “keeping” anything. I have no problem worshipping on Sabbath (Saturday) or any other day, What I do object to is our church demonizing other Christians for worshipping on another day - ours being no more correct than their’s. So yes, I can live an “Adventist life” without the self-righteousness about a day.

(James Peterson) #148

And all this time, I thought you were a man, as in ‘Sir’ Je…


(Tim Teichman) #149


The genesis account includes advice from God on how to measure the passage of time and seasons - use the sun and the moon. So moon-ths / months were based on the lunar cycle. They still are today on the Jewish calendar.

I’ve read several authors who make the claim, which is easily refutable, though I have never seen anyone refute it, that:

In the Bible every time a Sabbath is identified with a numerical date it is always on the 8th, 15th, 22nd, or 29th of the month. Likewise, when one of those dates is mentioned it is always a Sabbath.

This only makes sense if the Sabbath is tied to the days of the month. And since lunar months, the only kind of months in bible times, are either 29 or 30 days long, it is not possible for the Sabbath to have been continuously repeating every 7 days.


Thanks for the reply.

Please know I am not intending to single you out or point fingers because you just happen to be one of a few on here that deconstruct Adventist pillars, not just sabbath, with a biblical scalpel, and yet continue with the “we”. IOW, what part of SDA keeps you from considering another church? Asking as a 3rd gen. SDA that agreed with most all your points long ago solidifying my exit.

(Sirje) #151

As in “sound like” Syria. You have to roll the R.


Thank you—I’ve always wanted to ask you how to pronounce your name! :slight_smile:

Mentally retooling…

(Sirje) #153

Yes, even the Hebrews had leap year. The month was either 29 or 30 days. If the weekly Sabbath was not part of the Lunar month which contained the various festivals and holy days, what was it based on? Surely there wasn’t a continuous counting by sevens since creation. Even today, after a few days in bed with a flu, we wonder "what day is it anyway?’ Just check your clock run by a satellite. Back then, the satellite was the moon.

(Sirje) #154

I do that every day. :thinking:

(Sirje) #155

Where is it any better? There is family to consider and, oh so many friends - close and dear.

(James Peterson) #156

The Sabbath of the 4th was intended to signify that the Hebrews were no longer slaves, that God had set them free. Moses would amplify this in Deut. 5:15, “And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.” God set Himself as an example. Exod. 20:11, “[BECAUSE] in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

The principle of the commandment is REST, rest from labour, from oppression, care, worry, anxiety, troubles, … God illustrated this by having them collect manna for two days on the sixth day, that on the seventh, there would be food without them having to worry about having something to eat, to live. Exod. 16:22-30

The book of Hebrews (4:3) interprets the commandment similarly, “For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: So I swore in My wrath, they shall not enter My rest,” although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.” Consider Jesus’ well-known saying as well, “Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” Mat. 11:28

The Sabbath is a symbol of that rest, the ruby diamond on the finger of the Church. Does any girl hide such a thing? Does she not wave it about “accidentally”?


(Steve Mga) #157

Correct! Every so often they had to ADD an extra month to make up for the time difference.
Otherwise “A named Spring Month” would fall in the summer or fall.
The Lunar year is 11 days shorter than the Sun year.
So they add a non-named month every 2-3 years, or 7 of them in 19 years.
Since they have a 12-month moon cycle to a year, that keeps the seasons correct
according to their names on their calendar.

(reliquum) #158

And therein lies the etiology of our core condition.
We are unhealthy as part of the body of Christ precisely because we have the hubris to claim exclusive fidelity. Even a mustard seed of humility could cure us.

Only God is faithful: man is always unfaithful.

(Frankmer7) #159

Hebrews 4 is not talking about the seventh day sabbath as rest, or even as a present symbol of rest. If anything, it is pointing to the insufficiency of the OT symbols and experiences of rest in light of the Messiah and his rest. All of them (the rest of entering the land, creational completeness, which is tied to sabbath rest) are identified as pointers to the true rest that has now come through the Messiah.

The problem in Hebrews is that Jewish Christians, to whom it was obviously addressed, were running back to the identity and experience they had in these observances and from within their history. The writer is saying that if those were sufficient, the bible would have never spoken about another day, called today. He quotes the psalms: “Today is the day of salvation.” Today is the day that is the locus of God’s rest, not the land, not the seventh day, but today. IOW, rest is an ongoing, present, and vital reality because it is found not in a day, but in a living person…Christ himself. That is always the experience as immediate as today…and dare I say it…present truth?

Again, the Adventist default position is to find the ultimate meaning of this text in the Sabbath and the Law, while Hebrews, as the rest of the NT, is showing that the ultimate meaning of sabbath rest for the people of God is in the lived experience of the gospel and in Christ!



(James Peterson) #160

Don’t you see that the Sabbath of the 4th was a SYMBOL of the REST from slavery which God had given the Hebrews? Exod. 20:1, “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Deut. 5:15, “And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.