How Healthy is Adventist Eschatology? An Endogenous Imbalance (1)

(Cfowler) #24

Wasn’t this what the Old Testament sacrificial system pointed to, the coming of the True Lamb, the Perfect sacrifice for the atonement for the sins of the people? If this isn’t what the Old and New Testament are testifying to, then what are they saying?

(Richard Ruhling) #25

Elder Gulley preached that “Sunday” is the next prophetic event THIRTY YEARS AGO–he was never more wrong along with our pioneers who thought 1844 was “the time of the end” because they thought the 2300 days (years) in Dan 8:14 was the “vision at the time of the end” (verse 17) but the word for “vision” is chazown the ram and goat are at the time of the end with Iraq & Iran where the Medes & Persians were. This is half fulfilled and the next war is with Iran, NOT N. Korea as the news has served us its risks for a year.

(Richard Ruhling) #26

I love your comment re SDAs not able to put gospel (good news) with end-times. It’s because they are “blind,” (Rev 3:17) and church leaders were not seeing Ellen White’s eschatology that went BEYOND the Great Controversy into her last title, “The Captivity & Restoration of Israel” which they CHANGED to a meaningless “Prophets & Kings.”

Her title was based on Jer 30:3 where God “will bring the captivity of my people, Israel and Judah, and cause them to return to the land that I gave their fathers, and they shall possess it…though I make a full end of all other nations.” verse 11.

This is the OVERLOOKED context of the New Covenant Promise in the next chapter as verses 8,10,16,17 amplify HOW we can have His law written in our hearts. We laugh at Israel, afraid to go to the Promised Land because of giants, but now it’s our turn to consider God’s plan!

Not just for Jews–“If you are Christ’s, you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise,” Gal 3:29. That land was for his seed, Gen 15. The question is, do we know that God is behind His promises?

If so, we should be eager for a covenant with Him because He will protect us as He promised for Israel in Exod 34:10,11.

“That which God purposed to do for the world through Israel, the chosen nation, He will finally accomplish through His church on earth today… even His covenant-keeping people.” PK 713,714.

To be a “covenant-keeping people,” we will need to make or renew the covenant as Israel did after their long exile in Neh 8 & 9 when they even “signed and sealed” to it, Neh 9:38.

After Israel made a covenant with God, He said, “I am married to you,” Jer 3:14. THAT’s the meaning of the wedding parables–NOT a rapture.

Paul included the Exodus in “all those things happened to them for our examples at the end of the world,” 1Cor 10:1,11.

When God executed judgment on Egypt, there was a ‘midnight cry’ (Exod 12:29,30) as the Bridegroom came. That’s why Ellen White likens it to a “sudden, unlooked-for calamity” that will test us in that wedding parable. COL 412.

It’s Good News//Bad News. Good News if we are ready and watching-- “He will make [us] ruler over all that He has” Luke 12:44, but Bad News if we shrug this off and aren’t watching–then we will be “beaten with many stripes,” Luke 12:47,48.

I hope someone is reading this who will “get the message” that there is a totally different eschatology for SDAs than Great Controversy written in 1884 and revised mildly, but she said AFTER 1888, “we have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn,” CW 37.

She had a great attitude toward truth, but we have entrenched ourselves with an unwillingness to unlearn, and we still think “Sunday is the next event” but we are WRONG.

When pioneers gave a message of impending judgment and “Bridegroom comes” and had the ‘bitter belly’ of John in Rev 10, John was told, You must prophesy again–those SAME messages will fit now–a time of Judgment is impending and the Bridegroom will come with a wedding opportunity for those who are “watching” in Luke 12:36,37.

The “knock” is an earthquake (‘sudden, unlooked-for calamity’ COL 412)
because the only other place Christ ‘knocks’ is Rev 3:20, for a lukewarm church that ended in an earthquake in 63 AD

Ellen White had a vision of an earthquake at Loma Linda recorded in 9T 92-95. Most readers think it was about San Francisco, but she cited Zeph 1:8 to say God “will punish the king’s children” Why?

When the deadline came for purchase of Loma Linda, they had NO money until the mail came with Ellen White’s letter–a check for $5000.

It was to be HER school to train thousands with simple remedies and how to eat healthfully. The best of physicians today see that as true healthcare.

But the AMA pressed leaders to teach pharmacology and twice EW said NO. The 3rd time, she would not see them, so they reported to the committee that “she didn’t say no…”

Our failure needs to be seen in light of

Judgment is impending on the church for its failure to “walk in the light” so it will be like Jerusalem 8T 67.

The Good News is in a right understanding of the wedding parables. Concerned readers are welcome to call to discuss… 928 583 7543.

May God bless you!

(Jose Colon) #27

The problem it’s that we want to pretend to be God in an apocalyptic way. It’s a secure way to be in an emotional chaos. And that is a real problem.

(Sirje) #28

Personally, I don’t believe God NEEDED to have Jesus killed this way to take care of the sin problem; but, there is a need for justice on behalf of mankind. God placed us on space rock, sharing space with a monster from heaven (as the story goes) - one who managed to turn 1/3 of the angels against the God they were serving. Mankind was to do battle with it, and win.

Paul sees Christ as the second Adam, come to put all of mankind into the right relationship with its maker. Why all the sin and suffering in the meantime… God made man intelligent - able to make decisions, not a robotic “yes man”. All men/women have to develop a character, otherwise we would be empty shells. Character building is a messy business. We appear to learn more from our mistakes than from our successes.

The other part of this drama is the role of justice. All the character building we’re to do means nothing if there isn’t an ultimate definition of right and wrong; good and bad - therefore, justice has to be done. There has to be a judgment based on God’s definition (the only definition) of right and wrong. God, Himself, is paying for the consequences of our wrong choices.


Today is the 70th anniversary of modern Israel (non-lunar date) many say in one day to align with prophecy. Jerusalem is prominently in the news as the US places their embassy there.

Romans 11:25 “For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.”

What does that mean in Adventist eschatology? Many see that the Bible predicted that the Jewish people would return to Israel, in unbelief, to mark the end times and that Jerusalem figures prominently in prophecies concerning the end times (Joel 3:1; Jeremiah 23:3; 30:7; Ezekiel 11:17; 37:1–14). Someday, the Jewish temple will be rebuilt in the Holy City (Daniel 9:27; 12:11; Matthew 24:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:3–4).

Is this impossible? Why/why not?

Would be interesting to discuss the new documentary out “The Coming Convergence”. Interesting comparison to how/why the Pharisees of the day missed the signs of the first coming and how many may be doing relatively the same concerning the second. Fascinating!

Change of Law?
(Cfowler) #30

I think things are “converging” big time. Maybe the fullness of the Gentiles is coming to a close…and yes Israel is still in unbelief. Very interesting times!

Adventist eschatology…I’m not real sure how long people can continue to think that it’s about them.


What is a more realistic scenario, the North America-centric Sunday law victimhood given by Ellen in her original GC or that which is actually pointed to in the bible and now coming together with those exact nations involved?

One word that should makes those look around and see that there is a possibility they haved missed the prophecy boat…

Do a news search for it or Israel. Maybe the bible means what it says.

Zechariah 12:3
And it shall happen in that day that I will make Jerusalem a very heavy stone for all peoples; all who would heave it away will surely be cut in pieces, though all nations of the earth are gathered against it.

Seems to be part of a convergence of things…

“SPOIL.” Straight from the pages of scripture…Ezekiel 38:13. Listen to Netanyahu from the 4:04 - 4:50 mark.

(Cfowler) #32

It seems very clear that Israel/Jerusalem will be at the center of end time happenings. The Bible points to this, and the news is all about the middle east, with Israel being the biggest irritation.

Just the fact that Israel became a nation again is startling. If that’s not “your sign” (courtesy of Bill Engvall), I don’t know what is. Plus, as you said, the supporting cast of characters is in the mix…as stated in scripture.


Cassie, thanks for much for your input on this subject on Eschatology @Cassie … especially the “tomcats” aka too much noise for the SDA church to actually listen to what message is being “presented”

I dont wanna be a “nonner”…

Here are some terms in the soup… ex-adventist, idol worshipper, cheap gracer, non-pork eater, green tea drinker… I could go on… non-EGW worshipper, meateater… or better yet… "where do you stand on the nature of Christ? Huh? are you ready for the “litmus test”?

I’ve always found it rather odd that people that are not one of “us” are one of “them” based on this inclusionary perspective… which means… if I aint an SDA I am by “default” … yep you guessed it… a “nonner” aka non-adventist…

Funny thing is…, I’ve never met a non-baptist… or a non-presby, or non-lutheran… but oh boy have I met a non-adventist… I looked in the mirror a few years ago and realized I was one of them… “even had some people tell me that I had” … “joined my soul to Satan”… you know the quote that those who are not “one of us are one of them”? you know the “nonners”… since I dont “agree with the Sanctuary doctrine… the way they do” i am automatic… in the “them” camp…

Isn’t it nice to feel excluded, I am where I am at based on my study of the bible, should I follow something I can’t vet out of fear or should I continue to make sense out of the NT gospel?

I am sure glad that I still have friends in the SDA church that don’t consider me a “nonner”… maybe thats a sign that God is still working in all churches… unfortunately for most adventists… people that are “nonners” … just dont hold the same value… you know, the ones that “blindly accept” that the “church is going thru”… the church is going thru… and people comprise the church.

This brings up the remnant concept… which i find kinda sad and comical, there is a remnant within the remnant… (explicably tied to fundamental literal reading of anything EGW).

So remnant one, forms another remnant, Sheperd’s Rod - remnant two, that forms Davidian’s - remnant three, that of course forms, remant four… Koresh… Eschatology and how it’s interpreted forms very striated and “us vs them” thinking.

It’s kind like the Sunday law… is secretly wished for so that the “last days” can begin in earnest…

This way of thinking baffles me, God is looking for a people that are “in tune” with him… If EGW is used to help you focus more on the “weighter matters of the law”… But lets skip that and look for any way to “lessen the importance” of other people, not to mention their value to God (which we should be modelling as a fruit of our behavior) … actually seeking contact time.

I used to feel guilty for being a “nonner”… now I just want to understand God’s ministry in the MHP… where is grace abounding in my life? … are my eyes spiritually attuned to notice His leading?

with kind regards,


When your whole religious structure is based on the Epistles of Elllen that mix old and new covenants, the veil is still there today…

Christ’s Epistle, 2 Corinthians 3
Do we begin again to commend ourselves? Or do we need, as some others, epistles of commendation to you or letters of commendation from you? 2 You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.

The Spirit, Not the Letter
4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Glory of the New Covenant
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as [b]by the Spirit of the Lord.

(Cfowler) #35

This is such a phenomenal passage, Paul. It’s a great shame when a group, or individual, chooses and teaches that the ministry of death is still binding on Christians. A lack of understanding of the Holy Spirit working in our lives to transform us (a new creation), and that we no are no longer under the schoolmaster.

It’s so clear!!!

“Oh foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you…”


I see a very, very small segment of the SDA church that gives emphasis to an apocalyptic eschatology. Frankly, what I find more prevalent is a complete apathy toward apocalyptic rhetoric. There is a certain and noticeable fatigue with doomsday predictions. While Amazing Facts still sends out evangelists and prints up full color brochures featuring beasts with shiny white teeth and horns of every description, the majority of Adventists give these ideas almost no thought and for the most part stay away from these meetings in droves.

How else can you explain a church that teaches that the United States of America is the image to the beast of Revelation 13, and at the same time have a majority of Adventists who join and vote with those who are determined to see the image to the beast succeed in persecuting “Unbelievers?” Very few SDA’s have even a semblance of apocalyptic theology at play in their thinking.


“The Turkish prime minister (is) calling for an extraordinary Summit of Nations, Islamic Nations, to unite against Israel, and included in the summit is Russia, Iran, Turkey, & Sudan among others.”

Sure seems to line up with biblical references. Meanwhile not even a glance by Adventists that any of this could possibly be connected to bible prophecy as they watch for a Sunday law…

"As Foretold, the Nations Are Already United and Prepared to Act.
How realistic is it to think of the nations of today’s world uniting to deal with the problem of Jerusalem, and to impose an international solution by military force? Although people may not be generally aware of it, events have been moving in that direction for decades…"

(Steve Mga) #40

What you say may be true. There may be a Huge conflict in the Middle East.

BUT this is NOT the Revelation “Harmageddon”.
the Revelation “Harmageddon” is a Spiritual Battle, NOT a Literal Battle between
the West [United States and Europe] and the East [Russia, China, Islam].

Yes, SDA have been preaching this [usually VERY GRAPHICALLY with disturbing
pictures on the big screens in churches for over 65 years, and in slick handouts
for even long than that]. But “Harmageddon” of Revelation is NOT the combined
forces of the world meeting in the Valley of Jezreel in the Middle East.


OK. Do you think Jesus will literally touch the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, "and it will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the Mount moving north and half moving south.” Or is that allegorical?

(Allen Shepherd) #42

Romans 7:7,8,10 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law, For I would not have known that coveting really was if the law had not said, “Do not covet.” But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire… Once I was alive apart from law, but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and i died.

Romans 8:7-9 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
You, however are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit if the Spirit of God lives within you.

Thus, those filled with the Spirit submit to God’s law, and can do so.

Those that teach that the law is done away teach a ministry of death, for not submitting to the law of God leads to death as Paul here notes.


Thank you for the proof-texting example. You skipped Romans 7:1-6 which leads into where you started in verse 7. Why is that? Let’s read 1-6 and see how it clears things up:

1 “Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law [a]has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

You did the same thing in chapter 8, why? Let’s read that:

“There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who[a] do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be [b]carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the [c]carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.”

Clears things up when read in context. Which law were you referring to?

(Cfowler) #44

This is totally backwards!!!

The Greater Glory of the New Covenant

7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate[a] the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

So, tell me this Alan. If someone is born again by the Spirit, and the fruit of the Spirit is this…

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

why are Adventists always wanting to bring people under the Old Covenant?

It all boils down to Sabbath, that’s the main thing in Adventism. But…the Sabbath is the sign of the Covenant God made with Israel, the Old Covenant. It’s done away with, it’s not for Christians, and SDA’s don’t keep it according to God’s calendar anyway.


Its like deja vu all over again…