How to Be In Babylon but Not Of Babylon (Part 3)


I am very interested in the topic of pain, Dennis. Two of my sons have studied it extensively.

I look forward to talking more with you about this, hopefully before you give up on me! (I have an elliptical orbit when it comes to posting here—now you see her, now you don’t.).

Not to worry. Spectrum banned me for six of the twelve months of 2017. We should get along fine.

I’m going to go sit by a lake now.

Blessings to you and yours.

The insular cortex also is where the sensation of pain is judged as to its degree.


The insula is considered “older” than the neocortex, which is involved in localizing pain (correct me, anyone who knows about these things).

So, where I’m jumping into this topic, Dennis, is the matter of fetal pain, namely, can an unborn baby experience pain before it has a functioning neocortex online?

(I assure you I am willing to range widely here with you, including talking about Ron Wyatt, eventually.)


I have lots of stellar Christian Values that I am not living up to, and seemingly can’t live up to, Eddy. That’s one of the main reasons I had my name removed from the Adventist books.

I’m a fairly strong-willed person, but I was forced to face the fact that I can’t run my life on willpower.


Yes, we both know from experience the pain of being shunned, don’t we, Dennis?

I’m going to be in touch with my friend Tony about our conversation here. He’s done a lot of work on just what you’re talking about.

PS: I assume you’ve read Damasio? Bud Craig also mentioned him.




Thank you so much for researching this, Dennis! I’m going to run this by my son who did a thesis on fetal pain.

Shades of Descartes and vivisection!

Yes, if Adventists are hell-bent on dismembering babies, at least follow the Precautionary Principle and anesthetize the wee babes, for God’s sake. @cfowler

But there are interesting developments here! A famous atheist pain scientist who used to believe fetuses couldn’t feel pain is now reconsidering!

Well I don’t think you’re crazy or washed up. On the other hand I need to learn more about what you’re saying, to know if I can make sense of it, but it’s definitely interesting. Tell me why I shouldn’t be a panentheist.

His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber.

Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.

The Adventist Bioethics Consortium (Day 2)
Ellen White:

The brain nerves which communicate with the entire system are the only medium through which Heaven can communicate with man and affect his inmost life. Whatever disturbs the circulation of the electric currents in the nervous system lessens the strength of the vital powers, and the result is a deadening of the sensibilities of the mind.


Brief thought: Dennis, while you and I are more or less “doomed” to think about things like synthesizing science and religion day and night, I think we need to be careful not to reify wispy intuitions into schemes that become beliefs.

At the end of the day, if it’s not falsifiable, and it’s not implementable, it may just be wool gathering.

I do a lot of that, I’m afraid.

Anyway, though I find some of what you say confusing, there are themes there that are interesting and probably very important.

Kellogg took his Biologic Living off into eugenics.

I’m interested in a kind of integration of science and faith that self-corrects us towards pro-social growth.

Is that possible, Dennis?


Wow, I see I need to spend some time with all this, Dennis.

I may have to give up my full-time career of stalking Kevin and just focus on this thread.


@kevindpaulson The Monster from Mordor is gone now…for the time being…

It’s not only “a perfect example,” I think, Dennis, it is the growing edge of religion and science, I believe. So thankful we can talk about that!

Science and religion are not two different things.

Two paintings I love…wait, I can’t find the second one…later on that…

Astronomer Copernicus’ Conversation with God

“Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.”

― Leonardo da Vinci

Safe travels, Dennis!


Lucas Cranach the Elder: Christ blessing the children

Notice the light. Notice the men.


From your article, Paul:

Only with humans do you suddenly discover the utter worthlessness of the potential.

I agree with this reasoning, Paul.

And…I believe that Dennis is right:

It’s going to take more than reductive reasoning to see this pivotal issue clearly.


And that includes the pivotal issue of racism, as well.


Two words: heck yeah!

Your fellow spring-loaded, hair-on-fire, wild-horses-for-brains friend,



So, the ‘old covenant’ desire for ‘strong male leadership’, alone, may be interpreted by the one dark word – ‘covet’, as in 'Thou shalt not . . . .


Yes. And let’s not forget that white male hegemony is a very large hunk of reality.

…one dark word—‘kill,’ as in, Thou shalt not (commit soul murder). . . .


I love to read your hard-to-follow but yeasty thinking, Dennis. I’m going to take more time with this tomorrow, but I’ll share one brain problem that bedevils me frequently: spatial perception. I can’t make mental maps, so visualizing these brain areas and pathways pulls up a blank screen for me.

I have DTD, Developmental Topographical Disorientation:

I took Dr. Iaria’s test and he says I’m a textbook case.

My hippocampi are apparently fried, maybe from childhood stress, I don’t know.

I don’t get lost in my house, or usually on familiar routes because my procedural memory compensates. But if I’m under stress, like with sad anniversaries, I get lost in my own neighborhood, like I recently did. I was half a block from home, and had no idea where I was.

Maybe I can find an app or something to help me visualize better, because I really want to follow what you’re saying.

Also, the Blakelee’s book is on Scribd Audio, so I downloaded & will listen soon.

Interesting about pain biofeedback. There’s a whole army of us out there on the Internets who can’t afford dentistry, and I have a whole protocol for when my teeth tune up, which is rare. Processing emotions is key, and eating cashews is magic for teeth, for some reason. Also, on YouTube, Rife Frequencies, Isochronal Binaural Beats, etc. Its actually kind of fun to play with what you can do with pain.

So I know that pain is a malleable thing from experience. Resistance makes pain worse, as any woman who has delivered a baby without anesthesia knows. And I know from doing Doula work that I can calm a woman and ease her pain just using my presence, voice and touch. You have to trust the Universe.

Someone loaned me Ron Wyatt video cassettes decades ago. I just couldn’t go there. I watched a couple of YouTube videos last week, and I can take what he says poetically and appreciate his devotion. I hope your thesis won’t unravel on that point—that is, I hope he isn’t pivotal to my understanding what you are saying.

We may venture into Panpsychism…



PS: Been meaning to ask you, Dennis, or anyone:

Do you think the Temples were on the current Temple Mount, or were they in the City of David? The Gihon Springs are in the City of David and drain into the Kidron Valley.


@DogTail. If you like Sacred Geometry, you might like this:

The Helical Heart: A Revolution in Cardiac Anatomy

Basic science review: The helix and the heart

It is an enormous privilege and honor to be asked to give the basic science lecture. Please join me on an adventure that I have taken over the past three years. I described this type of voyage to my daughters many years ago as “discovery,” in which you walk down certain common pathways but always see something different on that journey. I will tell you about my concept of how the helix and the heart affect nature, the heart, and the human.

To pursue this new route, I select a comment from my hero, Albert Einstein, who said, “All our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike, and yet is the most precious thing we have.” We all have to be students, who are often wrong and always in doubt, while a professor is sometimes wrong and never in doubt. Please join me on my student pathway to see something I discovered recently and will now share with you.

The object of our affection is the heart, which is, in reality, a helix that contains an apex. The cardiac helix form, in Figure 1, was described in the 1660s by Lower as having an apical vortex, in which the muscle fibers go from outside in, in a clockwise way, and from inside out, in a counterclockwise direction.


Indeed, but some say it was a Roman garrison. And did not Jesus say that not one stone would be left upon another? Whence, then, the Wailing Wall?

If it is merely a retaining wall, and not part of Herod’s Temple, why is it considered holy? (All naive questions, I know.)

Some say the Third Temple could be constructed in a matter of months—that the priests have been trained, the golden vessels have been made and it’s all prefabbed. If someone became convinced it could legitimately be done in the City of David, it could happen a flash, sans WWIII.

If any of this is true, or what it might mean, I have no idea. The Vatican does seem to have great interest in Jerusalem.

Progressive Adventists are allergic to prophecy, and conservative Adventists have it all figured out. No one seems to be paying attention.

No need to reply, unless you have time and want to, Dennis—just thinking in pixels. Get your leaves raked. :slight_smile:


Dennis, while you are out, I’m going to spend some time outlining your posts, blending the outlines, and then trying to distill the message of what you are saying here, which I will then share back with you.

You can then tell me if I’m in the ballpark, and a proper dialogue can happen from there, if you’d be interested.

I’m also going to work on visualizing and understanding the brain structures you’ve discussed. I imagine we’re very much on the same page about empathy and shared pain, as well as many other things.

See you later, I hope! :slightly_smiling_face: