HarryAllen:
Your statements above seem to be the type of statements that are often made about Condoleeza Rice, Colin Powell, and Clarence Thomas: “Well, you know, they’re not really Black.”
Surface beliefs? There it is, folks. The best way to win an argument. Confront objective evidence by invalidating it as a “surface belief.”
Seeing as how I am not in control of the “global system of white supremacy”, as I said, no one who is white can prove they are not a racist. I worked in Africa for 8 years, saved 100s of black lives that mattered, though in a place where life was cheaper, yet since I cannot replace that global system, I am still a racist. Go figure.
I said,
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That sort of explains a lot of things. If you don’t know what that means, you have so effetively pushed away your white brothers and sisters, they know that cannot get near. It works both ways, Harry.
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Harry, you don’t know how absolutely on topic that was.
But-in those liberal bastions where these stats are deppest rooted the state handily terminates-or supports-those fatherless children-why bother with self-responisbility? We have a codependent society willing to promise salvation, support, yes, even God given (huh?) liberty and (pursuit of) happiness. In exchange for vote obeisance. What could go wrong??.
Orphans and widows-repeat after me.
To God, Fatherless Lives Matter
Very interesting to hear about developments in the US. Thank you.
… yes, it is a major problem in my view. I understand that the very moment you hear this, it brings out all the fears and I am automatically labelled with this statement. For me, the collective has a huge value. Solidarity has a huge value. Solidarity doesn’t end where economy begins. And at the same time I value democracy and the freedom of choice. There can be creative ways for both. Like capitalism in its present form, that developed over a long time, underwent various changes, so something new could develop over time. Though, that new won’t be perfect either. However, I don’t connect this new to BLM.
Again, BLM (in your country and in Europe) is not a monolithic movement, but rather diverse. It is not just marxist or socialist, but includes also people who just want to do something against racism.
I wonder, since you don’t want to participate in BLM, fair enough because of your anti-communist fears and convictions, but what do you do against racism in your country? What are your unique ways if you don’t mind sharing?
I was reading this thread when this song came on so I thought I’d share… not making it up, it came on while reading, like a word we need to hear, right? Besides, it’s all about the blood folks…
Thanks, @Timo.
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I don’t know what this means, or to what it’s responsive.
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@Timo, you’ve never met a person whose meta-message means exactly what his words do as much as mine do. 
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You’re not credible on my cognition. However, if you’ve got a truck, knock yourself out.
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I’m waiting for a question… 
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You’ll have to take that up with God.
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You’ve never heard me mention “America.” I leave that to @Arkdrey.
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It’s not tiring to me. To quote The Cap, “I can do this all day.” 
I actually prefer this Rocinante, when charging:
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Your English is definitely getting better. You’re still mostly rhapsodizing, which makes me wonder why you don’t actually engage with the content here, instead of doing this awful “pedestaling.”
But at least I understand you a bit more. Well, at least right now. Maybe you’re incensed?
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It seems to me your endless redefinitions, ie “friend”, ensures you are always right.
In response:
This is worth a serious reply.
a) I’m not interested in being “right.” I’d like nothing better than for one of you white people to say something about race that actually stumps me, or that leaves me speechless.
As I’ve stated many times before, I’m not here to argue with you, or to convince you of “the truth.” I’m here to work out the flaws in the system of counter-racist logic that I’m attempting to design.
So, I would love for someone here to make a claim that actually requires hard computing. Not stupid, trashy stuff, like you saying, “No one, except their own attitudes and false beliefs, is holding blacks back.” That’s just junk.
I mean actual, unforeseen, logical quandaries, concerning how the elimination of racism should take place, and what justice should look like. Difficult questions. (@Arkdrey actually posed some, as have others.)
Most of what I’ve heard, here, like your statement, above, I’ve heard before, and, to a great extent, it’s the stale moanings of white people who are not yet used to non-white people yelling in their faces about white supremacy.
b) The issue about my “redefinitions,” as you call them, is one I’ve addressed before. It’s a core part of the system I’m building, though, so I’m happy to re-explain it.
In short, people should use the words that they mean, and only the ones that they mean. If they don’t mean what someone else means by a word, they should say, “That’s not what I mean.”
When @arkdrey spoke about his “friend,” I put quotations around it. That was my way of saying, “We are using this word at least two different ways.”
When he says “friend,” I take it that he means, in short, “a person that you like and enjoy being with.”
When I say friend, I mean:
Friend = One who has the will, plus, the ability, to find truth, and to use truth in a manner that produces justice and correctness, at all times, in all places, in all areas of activity, including Economics, Education, Entertainment, Labor, Law, Politics, Religion, Sex, and War.
[NOTE: Until such time as falsehood, non-justice, and incorrectness no longer exist in the known universe, no person, animal, etc. in the known universe, can be a “friend” to another person, animal, etc., nor can he, she, it, etc., function as a “friend” to him, her, or it self.
Racism (White Supremacy) prevents people from acting justly and correctly. If people do not function justly and correctly it is not possible for them to produce “friendship.”
Therefore, a person can have a friend, and/or be a friend, only after justice and correctness has been established in all of the known universe, in all areas of activity].
If @Arkdrey had used this person’s name, I would have used his name, not “friend.” He didn’t, though. He called him his “friend.” So, I had to call him that, but, when doing so, do it in a way that said, “This is not what I mean. I’m saying, 'Your ‘friend,’ so-called.”
Finally, I gave a longer, more detailed explanation, about why doing this is so critical to the system I’m building, to @Danny. I’m thankful for the pointed objection he made, then, because it compelled me, in that moment, to clarify, in writing, why I did what I was doing. Those, so interested, can read what I said on the link, above.
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I covered this in the previous response.
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All the best.
HA
Harry, you may have stated this in a post that I missed, but who do you hold responsible for slavery in America?
While your at it, can define Justice and Correctness in a way that doesn’t merely presupposes these definitions like you do with this one?
BTW, for me a friend is more than someone I enjoy spending time with. It has more to do with a human support network that one can rely on, and in return provide reliability… On top of being enjoyable. Although I have friends who are not always very enjoyable, because they can be very direct about my shortcomings.
Thanks, @Arkdrey.
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Oh, good! I strongly think you should consider it!
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Well, I have you here, to keep me honest. 
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In kind.
HA
Thanks, @PUCMatters:
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Thank you.
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I hope that you will.
HA
Thanks, @PUCMatters.
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Racism is a global system, with a sole, functional form: white supremacy
HA
Harry, you’re getting quite a bit of flack, so I thought would tell you that I have started asking the black folk in the congregations I used to pastor about race.
I thought it best not to get personal right away, a bit of a coward, I guess. So I asked them what they thought about the recent disturbances and all. I can get personal later… Perhaps not confrontational enough for your tastes, but a beginning.
The first was a retired Chicago hight school teacher, a gentleman. He said he thought it was time the Confederate statues came down, for they were traitors, and should have been hanged. He mentioned how Johnson, a southerner had pardoned them. Sabbath school started, so I could not ask more. He has been a SS leader in the past.
Then I asked the 98 yr. old lady we have been helping. She told me her granddaughter had told her that down near Evansville, black bodies had been found hanged in the woods about 8 miles outside town, and that white people said it was suicide! I told her that if such had actually happened, I would have expected it to be on the news or in the paper. She was not sure. I did not try to convince her one way or the other, but let it drop.
This was a very disheartening comment by one we have helped for some time. I believe she thinks it could be true. If such rumors are circulating, however, there is little hope.
I will let you know of other conversations as they happen.
Thanks, @PUCMatters.
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It depends on how one takes @ajshep’s affirmed, bolded statement.
If one takes a common understanding of what he means, doing so in a literal sense, “the vast majority of people, regardless of race,” are non-white. They are victims of white supremacy, not racists.
However, they are not “happy to have conversations” about race, either, I’ve found, mostly because, in my experience, they do not have a way to discuss racism without becoming emotionally overwhelmed, resentful, etc. They do not have a Code.
But I suspect that the original, quoted book reviewer, and @ajshep, though making this plea to universality, were really, mostly, zeroing in on, and concerned with, white people. (The context of the statement—the speaker’s preceding remarks—confirms this.)
In other words, the import of the statement was actually that, “The vast majority of [white people] are happy to have conversations about [race]- if [those conversations are] respectful and evidence based. Period.”
In other words, as I took it, this is what @ajshep, and the original speaker, wanted readers to know. The original statement is akin to what many white people mean when they say, for example, “I don’t care if he’s white, Black, green, or polka-dot.”
I always thought this a curious script: White people can’t get along with the colored groups that exist, yet here they are, making up new ones.
The statement is false, in other words; false like, “Some of my best friends are Black,” is false.
Now, I’m saying all of this, above, just as a piece of “semantic housecleaning.” Some will agree with what I’ve just said, some will disagree, some will agree with some of it, and/or disagree with some of it.
It’s not really critical, here, though, because none of this is the crux of the issue, or of your question.
Your question, @PUCMatters, in essence, as I understand it, is this:
Forgive me HarryAllen, but surely you’re not implying that the vast majority of white people referenced by ajshep are collectively responsible for something akin to breaking into Black people’s houses, tying them up, raping their wives, shooting and killing their kids, stealing and fencing all their valuable goods, and never getting caught?
If this is what you mean to ask me, and if this is what you want to know, here is my answer, also in bold:
I do not know if any of the white people, referenced by ajshep, are collectively responsible for something akin to breaking into Black people’s houses, tying them up, raping their wives, shooting and killing their kids, stealing and fencing all their valuable goods, and never getting caught.
However, the white supremacists are, collectively, responsible for something akin to breaking into Black people’s houses, tying them up, raping their wives, shooting and killing their kids, stealing and fencing all their valuable goods, and never getting caught, because that’s what the racists do, 24-7-365-10-100-1000.
And given the fact that the white supremacists are deceitful, secretive, and violent, it’s impossible for any Black person to look at any white person, and tell whether or not that white person is, or isn’t, a white supremacist:
White Supremacist = A White person who directly, or indirectly, helps to establish, maintain, expand, and/or refine the subjugation of one or more “non-white” persons, on the basis of “color,” and/or factors “associated with” color, for the basic purpose of “pleasing” and/or serving any, or all “white” persons, at all times, in all areas of activity, including Economics, Education, Entertainment, Labor, Law, Politics, Religion, Sex, and War.
So, given this fact, if you are white, and you tap some Black person on the head and say, “I’m happy to have conversations about race, if those conversations are respectful and evidence based. Period,” do not be at all surprised if that Black person’s response is both deafening and unprintable.
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I call what follows The Maximum Maxim: During the existence of white supremacy (racism), any charge, complaint, criticism, etc., made against a non-white person is better, more appropriately, and more fittingly, made against the system of white supremacy.
In other words, there is no more dangerous ground of intellectual irresponsibility and hyperbolic sophistry than the race system (white supremacy).
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It’s difficult for non-white people to do so, in any meaningful way, under the system of white supremacy.
By “any meaningful way,” I mean in a manner that, ultimately, doesn’t just convert into more power, and/or fuel, for the race system (racism).
That’s why I urge all non-white people—including those who attend, work at, or have graduated from P.U.C.—to strive for the elimination of white supremacy and its replacement with justice.
This would be the very definition of “doing better.”
HA
Thanks, @PUCMatters.
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Why do you say that? As far I know, and can tell, Condoleezza Rice, Colin Powell, and Clarence Thomas are really Black.
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Um, yes…I think.
I stated that, in my experience, Black people, who hold the views that @Arkdrey’s “friend” seems to hold, typically, either:
a) Believe and keep them,
b) Keep them, but don’t really believe them, yet act like they do, in order to gain benefits, or
c) Change them, based on changing their minds about them.
Now, that’s my experience. If you’re saying that’s not my experience, please let me know.
Or, if you’re saying that, in your experience, there are Black people, like a) and c), but not like b), again, please let me know.
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Thank you, but I’m not sure what "argument’ you’re suggesting I won, @PUCMatters, or what “objective evidence” you’re saying that I’m “invalidating.”
However, please tell me. I suspect your “folks,” at least some of them, might also want to know.
HA
Wow, Harry!
Wouldn’t it be better, when you see a white person, to assume they are not a White Supremacist, ie have not been raping and pillaging etc., rather than assume they are? Have you caught any whites in your house doing that etc.?
If you come to each encounter with such an image you cannot be rational. Give people the benefit of the doubt. You might get a better response.
Or, perhaps there is something that has happened to you personally that makes you feel this way?
Wouldn’t it be better to see a tall, muscular black man in a hoodie as not a potential criminal, rapist or drug dealer?
Well, There are fewer tall muscular black men in hoodies than white people, so It might be less psychological stressing to not look at all whites that way, than the black men you mentioned.
Both of these are a type of stereotyping. You as a liberal guy would say we should not do that, but I have not heard you address Harry with that criticism. He is stereotyping 68% of the population! The individual you mention, only about 1 or 2%.
Or perhaps you agree with him in his stereotyping?
Bryan, I am trying to point out a real problem for Harry. If you really think that every white you encounter is really or virtually raping and pillaging you have a problem. And it is not the whites you meet that are that problem.
Thanks, @ajshep.
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In the above response, you put the words global system of white supremacy in quotation marks.
This suggests that you may either a) feel that this is a fictional entity, or b) have another name for what I call the global system of white supremacy.
Which is it?
Also, you began by talking about your inability. You said:
but then you ended the sentence by speaking of white people, collectively:
This switch, in my impression, is a common, white feature of statements about ultimata, and other “end states,” particularly when it comes to racism.
Why didn’t you simply say the following?:
Seeing as how I am not in control of the “global system of white supremacy”, as I said, I cannot can prove that I am not a racist.
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Two points:
a) To many non-white people, complaining that
is the “missionary version” of saying, "Some of my best friends are Black."
In other words, its as though you’re saying, “These actions prove I couldn’t be a racist.”
The problem is that’s not true. And, because it’s not true, ironically, non-white people should more strongly suspect you are one. (Scroll down to “We were brothers and sisters regardless of race” for an explanation.)
b) You may have heard me say, in Spectrum fora, many times: Do not call any white person a racist unless that white person first says that they are one.
So, you will never hear me, nor have you ever heard me, refer to any white person as a racist.
However, if you say that you are a racist, I am going to take you at your word.
You’ve said this at least three times in our exchanges, @ajshep.
Like I’ve said, under conditions dominated by white supremacy, I take such statements extremely seriously. I do this even if that white person later says that they were “joking,” “using hyperbole,” “making a point,” etc.
I do this, much the way I would in a kindergarten, if a visiting adult said, “I like touching little girls’ underpants.”
I do this, much the way I would at an airport security gate, if a person entering said, “I have a bomb!”
The reason I say this is because, in both of these examples, were the offending person to say, “I was only joking,” those in charge would repsond, “Do not ever come back here. Your ‘joke’ indicates that you do not comprehend the seriousness of what’s going on, here, in this place.”
Those white people, who appear to seriously get, and appear to understand, the deathly effects of the race system, in my impression, do not “joke around” like this.
For example, @2ndOpinion, bness, @bearcee, JohnCarson, and/or Cassandra may be such people. As well, I’ve not seen them make these kind of remarks. But you do.
Go figure.
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I may have misspoken: What I meant to say was, What do you mean by that?
I’ll wait for your response, much as I’m still waiting for your other responses; i.e., not just the ones you choose to share.
For example, you said, of a Black, female parishioner, at the church you pastor(ed):
I asked you:
You’ve not answered this question.
Or, you said that, at your church:
So, I asked you:
You’ve not answered this question, either.
As I said to @Arkdrey, and as I often say to non-white people: Non-white people should carefully regard white people who do not answer non-white people’s questions, and/or who do not do so truthfully.
If racism is wielded, primarily, by deceit, secrecy, and violence, then, during the existence of racism, as it pertains to a non-white person, and/or non-white people, generally, any white person who
Practices deceit
and/or
Practices secrecy
should be strongly suspected of being a white supremacist.
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I may not know. Or, I may just have a different impression of the topic.
I think, to you, the topic was, “I can’t be a racist, because my racialized church congregation loves me.”
To me, the topic was, “If you think that white people, saying they’ll discuss race under your conditions, is not, to Black people, like being re-victimized by the people who previously victimized them, don’t take my word for it: Ask more Black people what they think.”
HA
Thanks, @2humBaby.
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I appreciate the question.
I never talk about “slavery in America,” or “racism in America,” or “the race problem in America,” or of any other similar construction. Indeed, typically don’t even use the word “America” when discussing racism, at all.
Why?
Because, under the system of counter-racist logic that I am attempting to develop, I define, “America” as follows:
America(s),
American(s),
American Citizen(s),
American Government,
American Flag(s) =
(1) Any person(s) who has (have) used truth in such manner as to have produced justice and correctness, at all times, in all things, in all areas of activity, including Economics, Education, Entertainment, Labor, Law, Politics, Religion, Sex, and War.
(2) A person who does not practice, or promote the practice of falsehood, non-justice, and/or incorrectness, at any time, in any place, in any area of activity.
(3) A person who does not practice, support, and/or promote Racism (White Supremacy).
(4) A person who does not submit to, and/or cooperate with, Racists (White Supremacists), at any time, in any place, in any area of activity, including Economics, Education, Entertainment, Labor, Law, Politics, Religion, Sex, and War.
(5) A person who speaks and acts to promote justice and correctness at all times, in all places, in all areas of activity.
(6) A non-existent person.
Now, for many, including many non-white people, this appears to be a really counter-intuitive definition, or set of them, for the word, “America.”
I completely accept that.
Explaining why the definition is written that way might take a little time, and a little space; maybe more than you have, right now. I’m sure you already expected this to be a much shorter response. 
However, I can explain it, quickly, this way: If “America” exists, no one has ever explained to me how “America” is different from white supremacy.
In other words, no one has ever said, “Under white supremacy, this happens”; i.e., the things that do.
“But, under (in, around, nearby, etc.) ‘America’, this never happens.”
No one has ever shown me how “America,” as that term is commonly used, is different from racism, or the race system.
Indeed, I like the way one of my mentors has put it: "‘Americans’ have yet to be produced."
So, the definition I use, essentially, says:
“If ‘America,’ or ‘Americans’ exist, this is what they would have to be, in order for them not to be superfluous to racism/white supremacy.”
However, I can still answer your question, if you let me re-phrase it a little.
If you’re asking:
Harry, who do you hold responsible for slavery?
and if, by “slavery,” you happen to mean what’s commonly called, or depicted as, “The Middle Passage,” “The Antebelleum Period,” “The South,” “The Civil War,” “‘Roots,’” “The Deadly Triangle,” “Taking Black people off of the coast of Africa and chaining them inside boats, so that they could work for white people while being the whipped, raped, mutilated, and otherwise mistreated for 250 years,” etc. … if you’re asking me who do I hold responsible for that, I would say, The White Supremacists.
Now, you’re clearly a curious, thoughtful person. So your next question may be, “Who are the White Supremacists?”
If so, I would say:
The White Supremacists are those people who, individually, and/or collectively, are described, below:
White Supremacist = A White person who directly, or indirectly, helps to establish, maintain, expand, and/or refine the subjugation of one or more “non-white” persons, on the basis of “color,” and/or factors “associated with” color, for the basic purpose of “pleasing” and/or serving any, or all “white” persons, at all times, in all areas of activity, including Economics, Education, Entertainment, Labor, Law, Politics, Religion, Sex, and War.
HA
Thank-you for your response.
