Ice Age Research Demolishes Young Earth Creationism: Authors' Second Response

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  1. To the moderators. The author’s of the article answered my comment and I’m responding. I’m hopeful that I’m doing so in an appropriate manner related to comment guidelines. If not, I apologize.

  2. To the authors; thank you for the response I appreciate it. No need to further respond after this I won’t take any more of your time.

I read your response and I’m puzzled by it in numerous ways. I’ll attempt to respectfully respond.

The authors say that they never intended to discuss evolution because (a) there is no certain evidence that macro-evolution ever occurred and (b) the Bible’s clear statements are TRUTH.

Seems there is evidence regarding the age of plants and animals, evidence (such as various dating methods) that the author’s dismiss without providing solid basis for that dismissal). My real issue is that regarding the author’s contention that the age of the earth is not what YEC says it is, is that the author’s base their belief on evidence outside of the Bible - i.e. ice core samples. They then decide that they are correct and interpret scripture in Genesis different than YEC do. If I understand your argument correctly, you have decided that Gen. 1:1-2 represent an entirely different time frame than the rest of the chapter. That’s not necessarily clear from the text and the Scriptures do not say that. You are inferring it based upon other evidence you have obtained from your scientific analysis; i.e. you interpreted Scripture based upon your scientific studies.

You suggest I doubt creation and seek evidence. That’s not quite correct. What I attempted to say is that you base your assertion on the age of the earth and that YEC are wrong is based on outside evidence. But that the rest of the Genesis story is as written and commonly interpreted and any outside evidence is irrelevant. I simply suggested that if so, you should also be willing to provide evidence to support the rest of the creation story with outside evidence and be prepared to refute other scientists evidence which supports plants and animals being alive longer than 10,000 years ago. (for example, what do you have to show that the Cambrian Explosion of over 500 million years ago and all the fossils records like Trilobites are in error), You do not do so and I find that troubling from a logical standpoint. Evidence which you deem to be accurate you accept, evidence you do not you ignore. That is really no different from Young Earth Creationist’s proponents in my view, you’re just arguing against one slice of their belief.

I certainly do not doubt that there is a God. I’m sorry if you misunderstood my sentence. Regarding the creation story, I do consider this to be of doubtful importance - to my salvation. My salvation is based upon Jesus’ sacrifice and resurrection on my behalf through no value or works of my own and my willingness to repent from my sins and ask Jesus to forgive me and that He will come again. And THAT is the Adventist Message.

Thank you for the dialog. I wish you continued success in your inquiries, both scientific and spiritual.

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I referenced the Flood because an ice age could not have occurred before the Flood. The Bible is clear that no rain had fallen before the Flood. An ice age cannot occur without precipitation in the form of snow, which becomes compacted over time into glaciers, which advance and retreat according to fluctuations in temperature and precipitation. Post-Flood chronology does not allow for an ice age “terminating 11,000 years ago,” much less one beginning 10’s of thousands of years ago.

Ice cores are just that–ice cores. They must be interpreted. To assign X number of years to them because of the number of layers, presupposes that each layer was deposited over regular intervals and that each layer represents an known period of time. This gets into the shaky realm of speculation, since one cannot know how many layers were laid down in a given year. As I’ve stated before, each snowstorm leaves a layer; some thicker, some thinner, but all recognizable. I know this from having lived where the snow was 8-10’ deep in an average winter. The layers were clearly visible where the snow plows had cut through. Scientist may claim to have shown that the annual layers in ice cores can be counted back to 90,000 years, but they cannot prove that those layers are annual layers. There’s no way of proving that they don’t represent multiple layers per year.

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Actually this has been quite convincingly demonstrated. Through a combination of the oxygen isotopes and pollen present in the seasonal layers, as well as volcanic ash with specific chemical signatures appearing at the appropriate place in the cores, and corresponding with actual eruptions of those volcanoes which have been dated via other means to particular years in the past.

In the space of a single (current) year, individual storm events can be discerned as separate layers. But once a few years go by and the ice is compacted, the layers that then emerge are annual layers. Your argument has been put forward many times by the YEC crowd, and thoroughly refuted by scientists.

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Birder, you have stated (based on Scripture) IA could not have occurred between Creation Week and flood. We agree based on evidence from modern science.

Hence, for YEC theology to be credible, IA must have occurred after flood but before time of Christ. This is what YEC claim, but it is just convenient speculation based on many assumptions.

Convincing evidence that the PFIA never occurred has already been presented (see original article). What? material? evidence from the natural world for its occurrence do you have?

God’s Book of Natural Science shows the real IA occurred on a planet created eons ago.

  • Stuart and Col
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Robert, we are pleased to learn that we might have been able to aid your understanding of modern science in interpreting Scripture. However, we note that you have many more questions that we have not addressed yet. Could we suggest you frame the most critical question from your point of view, for us to consider and respond to, and to your satisfaction we hope.

  • Stuart and Col
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Thank you, Stuart and Col, for your kind invitation.

You’re correct that I do have many questions, and choosing a single question as most important has not been easy. However I’ve selected the following question because to me, it presents the greatest challenge in terms of reconciling the information you’ve given us thus far, with the literal creation account of Genesis 1.

You’ve described a “pre-creation” world in which there were obviously mountains, and from which valleys were carved by glaciation associated with an ice age. You’ve placed this event as “pre-creation” because there is overwhelming scientific evidence that these events could not have happened “post flood” as claimed by young earth creationists. If I understand correctly, you claim that what you’ve suggested is consistent with a literal reading of the Bible.

As I read Genesis 1, from verses 1 through 10, I see a pre-creation world that was covered by water (verse 2), and there was no land until day 3 when God said “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” (verse 9, quoted from the NIV).

How do you explain the reading of these verses if you believe the mountains and glacial valleys existed prior to creation week?

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it is now becoming clearer, I believe that the genesis “creation week” was inspired by returning exilic Jews who sought to improve on the uninspiring Jewish account in chapter 2-the older version. They, perhaps Ezra et al, no doubt saw Babylonian re-enactments of creation dramas at annual New Years presentations and with Judaism in tatters due to the collapse of Sabbath-keeping and intermarriages with women of other religions PLUS the belief that God had specifically aided their captors , something drastic needed to be done to improve morale. In fact aspects of the Genesis-based Sabbath do not correspond with the ten commandments. Exodus 20:8 says “Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it Holy”. This implies a Solar PROTOCOL starting at SUNRISE , I believe. The Babylonians believed in a LUNAR Protocol so that their astronomers could attempt to point out in the night sky the constellations from which they believed their Gods came. The EVE of a Holy Day was then important to the pagans starting at SUNDOWN , which the Jews Adopted.As for creation week, "The Book of God"does not support 144 hours of creation.

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Robert: Since you read in Genesis 1 of a world covered with water and dry land appearing on Day 3 of Creation, we now see the apparent contradiction faced, because we have presented a world with mountains and glacial valleys formed by an ice age, and all this occurred before Creation Week.

However, to review the picture from Nature and as modern science sees it, we can state: ice sheets (23,000 years BP and before) covered only part of the Earth (northern Europe and US, and Canada and parts of NZ), and there were always mountains etc. elsewhere. However, climate generally was cold and dry during this glaciation.

Melting of the ice began about 20,000 years BP and the ice age ended about 11,500 BP when the Holocene period commenced as God prepared the Earth for Creation Week. Sea level rose by 120 meters between 18,000 and about 8,00 years BP while Earth temperatures normalised about 9 to 11,000 years BP. In the briefest of summaries, the above is the overall picture of essentials revealed by modern science. There are differences between the hemispheres of course, but several types of evidence harmonise to provide the above picture.

We propose that Creation Week Occurred after 10,000 years BP, but modern science reveals little regarding the events that preceded the Biblical date for creation Week but shows that Creation Week was in a period of very stable climate. According to Scripture, the Earth was covered with water but this was after the end of the ice age. Hence there should not be any real contradiction.

Perhaps the pre-Creation covering of water was an act of God that we do not understand. It has evoked much speculation. Was it and the associated darkness a judgement of some kind? Was it really water or just water vapour?Did it cleanse the Earth fro a new beginning at Creation Week? We do not know from modern science -yet. We know by faith it was for a purpose, part of God’s great Creation Plan. God told us that Creation Week occurred on an “old” Earth formed eons earlier. That’s all we know and need to know.

 "Oh; the depth and richness of the unsearchable wisdom and knowledge of God! 
 How far beyond our human understanding are His gracious decisions and His ways  
 of carrying them out!     Rom. 11:33 (The Clear Word).

May we suggest that you purchase a copy of the book by Collins for further study as it appears likely that you can resolve many of your other questions for yourself from a study of Collins. It is quite readable too and the text is only 278 pages. Available from Koorong at just less than $30AUD. Collins is an expert on ancient Hebrew and contributed to the translation of the OT for ESV.

Full details: C John Collins, Genesis 1 - 4, A Linguistic, Literary, and Theological Commentary, P& R Publishing Company, Phillipsburg, N.J., USA, 2006.

Please remember, that we have never claimed any expertise in theology, and think you can read this story as well, if not better, than we can. For example: Collins concludes, that Genesis 1:1 “tells us of the origin of everything”. “The first verse, as I [Collins] see it, narrates the initial creation event; then verse 2 describes the condition of the earth just before the creation week gets under way. These two verses stand outside the six days of God’s workweek, and–just speaking grammatically–say nothing about the length of time between the initial event of !;1 and the first day of 1:3”. (p. 78).

Hope this gives you some clues as to the way forward in reading modern science as being in accord with Scripture.

  • Stuart and Col
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Thank you Stuart and Col, for your considered response.

I can’t help but think though, that in an attempt to hamonise a literal reading of the Bible with some scientific evidence that you’ve studied in detail, you’re again postulating a number of things for which there is no scientific evidence.

If water had really covered the whole earth after the last ice age, there should be an abundance of evidence to indicate this. There is none. Additionally, there would be no ice cores dating back beyond creation week, as all the ice packs would have been melted by the water. And where did all the water go afterwards? If there was enough to cover the mountains (mountains on many continents are circa 4,000 metres high, and the Himalayas rise above 8,000 metres) we not only have a problem in terms of where it went, but also where it came from in the first place. To suggest that the water may have just been water vapor, is to deny the plain meaning of the text as it reads.

Thank you for your recommendation of John Collins’ book - I shall definitely put this on my reading list.

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With sme interest I have followed the theories displayed and the discussions.

Well, I am no scientist in the field of geology. But - here as a layman - I just remember driving through he alpine valleys : : The “sholders” of the slopes a product from galciers a long time ago,shaped and planed by the ice through veryvery long times. And in the midst of the vallieys : gorges and canyons, washed out by the water, when the ice sheets pulled back to grerater altitudes… Water washes out gravel and forms a delta , ice shoves along rocks and sometimes you find glacier mils : Basins, in the rock, giant basins, sectionlyshaped as a giant, deep parabole in the solid rock and a perfectly ballshaped roch in the middle : Some rock once got cought in a hole, water - not continuoslsly - was streaming in, an the rock was grided to a ball, the caves walls to a perfect parable. Just guess how long his process took !

But you bother about “Creation Calendar” as the only matter sustaining Sabbath worship, you in long contributions argue about - - - - And are you aware of this or that or every church meber, strongly believing and hoping , in his everyday struggles ? Are you at last sometimes aware of the contless persecuted Christians ? Their numbers ? Are you just sometimes thinking about the Islam threat ? Of a secular Europe with childrens welfare , adapting by law enforcement the Mulim children - - and the SDA children - for an equal society and culture ?

My Dera, stdy and read about iice ages, out of primar and secondary literature, of mystery books and scientfic reports - we are burdened with other problems, mostly denying and disavowing the future, but quite often getting awake a imaging horrible vews…

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