Irony in the Adventist Compliance Controversy


(Kim Green) #61

"Eve surely had a clear conscience when she ate of the forbidden fruit."

I am certainly surprised that you wrote this. According to EGW, this cannot be true because Eve was warned against leaving her husband’s side AND avoiding The Tree. Even a very young child knows when it is taught something is wrong and cannot have a “clear conscience” if they transgress. Eve was said to be much more intelligent than you and I and could not have had a “clear conscience”…unless you are claiming that she had a mental breakdown which would have rendered her incapable of normal thought and reason.

"God never left things just to the conscience of human beings."

Yes, yes, He has…especially before the coming of Christ. EGW, herself, wrote that there would be those in heaven that had never heard of Jesus. Who or what allowed them to make “righteous” choices if not for the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit was given to be our “conscience”. Yes, He gave laws but those never cover all human contingencies and that is why we still have the Holy Spirit/God (aka “conscience”).

"William Noel said that we don’t need the church…"

I don’t believe that everyone needs to be a member of an organized “church”. I don’t think that it is essential to my salvation…it may be to your’s but not everyone.

"And I trust the teaching of the apostles more than I trust the teaching of any human being today."

Fantastic. I also trust the Holy Spirit than I do any person’s “interpretation” of the “teachings of the apostles”.


(Kim Green) #62

"Bureaucracy"

The church “bureaucracy” becomes an idolatrous love affair for some. I remember years ago when a fervent Catholic emphatically stated, “The Catholic Church is FOREVER!” I kinda get the same vibe from the LGTers here…


(Tim Teichman) #63

Yep. If SabbathDay was on the calendar it would work too.


(George Tichy) #64

A church can be a blessing when it is a place where Christians get together to worship God. But, it can also be a curse if it becomes an institution that forces itself between the human and the Divine and becomes to act as if it had any authority upon the believers.

This is currently the biggest danger that the SDAC is experiencing under this GC ad ministration.


(Kim Green) #65

I agree. The “church” does not necessarily represent God…especially under the current SDA administration.


(Thomas J Zwemer) #66

A nascent problem within Adventism is a self congratulation attitude…”We Have The Truth” It has become malignant at the GC. Thus it is only right to get everyone inline with the “Truth” . There is no salvation in Fundamental Beliefs. Christ only offers
His life for ours. Gender is not an issue in redemption. Or in the telling.


(George Tichy) #67

it’s my opinion that the church never represents God. Such a representation is old news, thinks from the Old Testament. In those days, yes, there was a representation, but not in the New Testament. In the New Testament the relationship is directly between the believer and God via Jesus.

What is the church for then? For me, the church is just the place where the believers congregate to share their experiences end to worship God - especially the latter. Unlike the current SDA Church’s Administration, the Church is not between us and God. Our spiritual relationship is between us and the Divinity, not between us and the church as TW appears to want it to be. Many martyrs died in the past for this believe - but not anymore!


(George Tichy) #68

The malignancy is progressing and making the real church more ill. Thins GC is actually reaching the point of congratulating itself for, “We ARE the truth, and we persecute anyone who refuses to bow down (komply…) to us.”

Do we still wonder how come the RCC could burn people in the past??? Well, just wait until the KGC’s Kompliance Kommandos are deployed to the battle field!!!


#69

Please support that with quotes from the TOSC report.


#70

Forked tongue attitude. The other element is that SDA are lazy, lousy, lukewarm Laodicean losers who say…“everybody makes mistakes, nobody’s perfect, we’re only human”…and yet know the verse…

“Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” 2 Cor 5:17

The WO fray is just a symptom of fanatic institutional Adventitis.


(Thomas J Zwemer) #71

“I know in whom I have believed, and He is Able—-“


(Edwin Reynolds) #72

Actually not. The RCC was not grounded in the word of God. Luther clearly was. The work of God in His church must be through the process that God has set up in His wisdom, which remains not only being grounded in the word of God but also having a biblical rather than a philosophical hermeneutic for interpreting the word of God. Luther had that. The RCC did not. Finally, the process God has set up is a bottom up administration, with representatives of the churches, as in Acts 15, come together with the apostles and recognized church leaders to make decisions in which the majority agree under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The RCC developed a hierarchical form of administration, while the Protestant churches developed a representative form of church adminstration, and the Adventist Church has followed in the latter pattern. (Cf. 5T 451, where Ellen White contrasts the RCC form of governance with the “Protestant and republican” form of governance, “republican” referring not to a party but to the representative form of governance practiced in the U.S. as also in the Protestant churches, including Adventism. These principles distinguish the Adventist church from the RCC in very important ways. They serve as the key to our strength and success.


(Kim Green) #73

I believe that God can work through churches…but, the fact of the matter does remain, that no church represents “God”. The SDA church has placed itself in an untenable situation when it claims to have “The Truth” and does not allow for any “New Truth”. Thus it has stopped its own spiritual evolution and is currently going backwards. This to me, is proof that the church hierarchy have lost their spiritual discernment and are leading its members into an abyss- which will result in a schism.


#74

Amen…


(Steve Mga) #75

“Spirituality” is a personal experience between the person and God.
There is no way to “test” “spirituality” because “spirituality” is the “knowing”
of “the unknowing”, “the unknowable”.

Religiosity on the other hand CAN be “tested”, but Religiosity and Spirituality
have nothing to do with each other. Religiosity is a METHOD but is NOT the
RELATIONSHIP.
Like Charles and John Wesley “Methodism” is a way Toward creating an atmosphere
where Spirituality and Relationship can be Created.
John and Charles had 3 Simple Rules.

  1. Do no harm.
  2. Do good
  3. Stay in Love with God
    Letter to Mr. John Trembath. “O begin. Fix some part of every day for private exercises. You may acquire the taste which you have not. What is tedious at first, will afterwards be pleasant. Whether you like it or no, read and pray daily. It is for your life. There is no other way. Do justice to your own soul. Give it time and means to grow. Do not starve yourself any longer. Take up your cross, and be a Christian altogether. Then will all the children of God rejoice.”
    [This is what is helpful with a Book of Common Prayer when one is starting out. It provides a
    template to develop a pleasant way to develop private exercises. Then allows time to add one’s
    own rituals that feel meaningful.]
    +++ And, one can ADD their own personal Communion [Eucharist] service at home as part of
    their Spiritual Rituals.

#76

I can’t help wondering in this whole WO argument, why those who argue this point, do not also follow the requirement that the priesthood was also to be of the tribe of Levi. Shouldn’t Ted, Mark, Doug, Boring, and the rest take DNA tests to comfirm their purity?


#77

Can Adventism be considered “representative” when the largest majority in the church, women, cannot be elected to the presidency of a conference, union, division, or the general conference? Women, as the majority of the church, are poorly represented in decision-making in official church committees at every level.


(Robert Lindbeck) #78

@GeorgeTichy and @linc there is “evidence” in ancient chinese texts that point to a weekly cycle that predates the Babylonian calendar. From texts dating back to around 2200 B.C. there is reference to the concept of a “recurring seventh day”. Remembering that this is only/roughly 500 to 600 years after the Tower of Babel incident. It is not only possible but also plausible that a weekly cycle had been kept since creation. THey didn’t need to count the number of week, only that it was the seventh day in the cycle.
With respect to Samoa, they were on one side of the dateline, and an act of parliament moved them to the other side. If you look at the line on the map, it bends out around Samoa. I It would be nice if they all could worship on the same day, but they have to follow their spirit-led conscience and worship on the day they are led to believe is appropriate.


(George Tichy) #79

You didn’t know that? WOW!!!


(George Tichy) #80

You made me laugh with this one! :laughing:

You are right, but they won’t take the purity test. Why? Because those people are very selective, and they only select what is “convenient” for their causes. In this case, the “cause” is perpetuation of discrimination of women. A social and spiritual catastrophe in our Church.