Is the Church Already Unified on the Issue of Women’s Ordination?


(Kim Green) #41

"My experience is that different people apparently employ different criteria."

Yes…based upon needs. If you know what the needs are- you are more likely to be able to determine outcomes.


(Kevin Seidel) #42

I don’t think I’ve ever sent cards for clergy appreciation day, so none of the above.


#43

I will celebrate the day when more of the cards are delivered to ordained women because of the Priesthood of ALL Believers.

Kade, do you mail cards for clergy appreciation month?


(Kade Wilkinson) #44

No. It’s simpler for me to just bring it to church.


#45

Good…I mailed mine.


(Kim Green) #46

How many do you hand out at church?


(Kade Wilkinson) #47

One. We only have one priest.


(Frank Peacham) #48

Women can serve as Physicians, nurses and in all areas of the medical professions.
Women can be educators, receiving Ph.D’s in every subject including theology.
Women can serve in every branch of the military, including four star generals.
Women can drive cars, buses, tractor trailers and bulldozers.
Women can be lawyers, judges as well as serve in the US Supreme Court.
Women can be elected to congress, Senate, foreign ambassadors and governors.
Women can be counselors, philosophers, poets, and Psychiatrist.
Women can preach and teach the Bible in every church pulpit.
Women can be a capable chefs in any restaurant of the land.
Women can fly private, commercial or jet fighter planes.
Women can climb the highest mountain in the world, Mt. Everest.
Women can be accomplished musicians, conductors and solests.
Women can bear children–men cannot not.

However women cannot be ordained to the ministry in the SDA church. (Maybe it’s just too hard for women or maybe because it is the last holdout that men can totally control.)


#49

Tim
Let me see if I can make you aware,
Gen. 2:7 God made man first, not Eve
Gen. 2:15 God gave the garden to man and told him to keep it. He had dominion of this earth.
Gen. 2:19 God told Adam to name all the animals, not Eve
Gen. 3:9 God called for Adam, not Eve after she ate the fruit
Gen. 3:11 God held Adam accountable for his sin, when it was Eve who sinned first.
Gen. 3:16 God said Adam would rule over Eve. That was not Adam’s doing.
Gen. 3:17 God said it was wrong for him to heed his wife and to not obey God’s words to him (Adam)
This headship was set up by GOD, not Adam, and has never changed. I could give you many more texts, but this should make you a little more aware.

You are incorrect about Deborah. Read Judges 4 again. Let me make you aware again.
4: 4 She was a prophetess. She was not a priest or king or elder or leader.
4:5 She sat under a tree, not in the gate where the elders and leaders sat. Deut. 25;7
4:8 Barak begged her to go with him. She did not lead them. She was not a general. She was along for counsel as a prophetess.
Hope that makes you understand she was not in a position of authority like an elder or priest or king or general.

Let me make you aware about the Commandments. They were in place long before there was a Children of Israel. Cain broke the sixth commandment when he murdered his brother.
The people before the flood were wicked. They were violating God’s law. Gen. 6:5
Without law, there is no sin. Rom. 3:20
Gen. 26:25 Abraham kept God’s commandments
Gen. 19 people in Sodom broke the “Don’t commit adulery” and there was lots of stealing and killing going on in Abraham’s time…all violations of the commandments of God.
Exo. 16:28. Commandments were in place before Mt. Sinai. Notice it is God speaking here.
God’s Ten Commandments is not just a covenant with people coming out if Egypt. I have no idea where you got those ideas you shared. God’s law is eternal.

Jesus never changed the Ten Commandments. He stated clearly He came to do His Father’s will. Matt. 5:17-19 READ IT.
For you to say that Jesus changed the law that He himself thundered from Mt. Sinai and it is a part of His very character of love is outrageous. Read Matt. 22:36-40.
The redeemed will be keeping His commandments. Rev. 12:17 ; 14:12; 22:14

This should give you enough to consider and maybe do some rethinking.


(reliquum) #50

I was about to quote that passage-and add my musing that “internal unity”, or “integrity of tri-unity” may perhaps be what the deeper essence of this prayer was. It is the Holy Spirit that gives the Godhead “external unity” between Abba and Jesus. It is the character of God (which the Son reflects perfectly) that gives each member “internal unity” (or wholeness, integrity).
We each are likewise, in imago dei, triune beings-comprised of a physical (deed/behavior) component, an intellectual (doctrine/belief) and a distinctly non-physical, non-intellectual component which I liken to being, “heart”, or identity, character, who/whose you are. We, unlike the members of the Godhead, are not internally unified-our beliefs and behaviors betray each other and betray our “being”.

We seem to have most of our deeds, and our doctrines in order-but fail-and badly- in our shared identity (as children of a heavenly Abba) and the resultant fraying of our kinship in community as much as in church. Note that other, and final, slightly paraphrased prayer of Jesus-“Abba, forgive them-forgive them ALL, for they do not KNOW (head) what they DO (hand), but they ARE all Yours; I brought them ALL back to you”.

When you note the unity of the temple-despite three distinct rooms-and you note that if you super-impose the temple on the triune nature of mans three distinct parts (hand-deeds, head-doctrine, heart), both form an “image” of something in heaven (in scripture, only the temple, and the nature of man are formed in the image of something in heaven).

Both the temple-and the human creature-are created to worship God.
In the temple, the “works of the hand” are done on the porch, the “head” worship is done in the first chamber-by three things-study of the scripture and prayer for the unifying agent (the HOLY SPIRIT). The “heart” of worship in man is obviously analogous to the inner chamber, the most holy place, where the Ark of the COVENANT (our adoption papers-our shared identities as children of a most high God) are protected, and God dwelt, sitting on the mercy seat.

We are doing worship wrong, perhaps, attempting to bring our deeds, and our doctrines, into the heart worship within the most holy place.

God does not want our “deeds”, they are as rags.
He doesn’t want our theological calisthenics-we are dim, and he is so high above.
All he really wants is our hearts-our unity as all lost children, and all redeemable by God (NOT OUR DISTINCTIVES, peculiar deeds, convoluted and illogical, incoherent doctrines)

Not one of us is higher, closer, better, more redeemable than any other, especially not on the virtue of our works of hand or or words of head worship. Any claim of such may preclude unity-and deny Jesus final prayer.

And that “mark”, of using our hand, and our head, to try prove our fitness may invoke a terrible and insurmountable cost. A contrite heart, just, merciful, humble…has no room for headship, uniformity, doctrinal programming, or any such pageantry.

The true seal is inside the ark, and it is our common adoption papers, ratified in blood.
There is another place the adoption papers exist. In a book, in heaven, with each of our names engraved on the heart of the father and the hand of the son. We did nothing to get on the list-and do not deserve it, but we forfeit the present, when we deny it in the slightest, to anyone.

Male only ordination has reared its ugly at this juncture of time because it is the last gasp of the vanquished. Headship heresy, its illegitimate spawn, assures disunity, simply because it is inimical by its very nature antithetical and fatal to any true unity.

HAVE A MARY[sic] CHRISTMAS Y’ ALL!
Its ALL IN THE “REST”, the “sabbath” of Jeru Shalom, when we stop trying to drag our hand work and head work where it doesn’t belong.
Pray we find unity in the present, to receive the future, before we are all passed…


(Kim Green) #51

Good to hear, Kade…saves a lot of money. :wink:


(Kim Green) #52

I will vote for “is the last holdout that men can totally control”…makes the most sense. :laughing:


(Kade Wilkinson) #53

Not every church pulpit, but perhaps you meant every SDA pulpit.


(reliquum) #54

Sheesh, no wonder i’m confused.
I was given a Christmas tree dreidel for Channukah
and a SantaClaus yarmulke for Christmas…


(Kade Wilkinson) #55

Kim,

I’d actually prefer to have a second priest, or at least a deacon, and I believe our parish could handle it financially. Our priest oversees a large flock spread over an even larger geographic area. Unlike a SDA pastor, his duties go far beyond some counseling and delivering a weekly homily. For example, hearing confessions takes a good chunk of time, and as the sole clergyman of our parish, he must perform the various weekly services (4-10) himself, with assistance at the altar only from sub-deacons.


(Kim Green) #56

I now remember that you are going to an Orthodox church (I think). What is the service like for tomorrow?


(Kade Wilkinson) #57

Similar to a Sunday morning. Matins/Orthros (an hour or so long service) followed immediately (no intermission or break) by Divine Liturgy. Very beautiful.

Here’s a YouTube from a previous Christmas if you’re interested. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8nt9tE1Yok


#58

Women certainly are ordained to the ministry in the SDA church.

If it’s too hard for women, it’s certainly too hard for men.

Yes, ordination seems to be the last holdout of men who are threatened by women, believe they may take their jobs, or believe the Headship Theory.

If women were not already ordained, there would be no “compliance” tribunals, threats of loss of voice and vote, and threats of “dire consequences.”


(Kim Green) #59

Thanks…will take a peak. :slight_smile:


(Tim Teichman) #60

Yes, well, none of what you wrote is convincing to me. And Deborah was and prophet AND the The Judge at the time. The leader of Israel. That’s what is says.

Merry Christmas!