Is the Church Already Unified on the Issue of Women’s Ordination?


(George Tichy) #61

I wonder when will the Kompliance Komrades start devouring their victims.
It’s all been too quiet since the AC-18.
Do you think that TW may be feeling like cornered by the Unions’ and NAD’s statements? Or is he just equipping his army with more powerful/violent weapons so the attack will actually be fatal at the first incursion?


(Frank Peacham) #62

I just was thinking of official church policy, which is opposed to WO. Poor women, according to church GC theology, God wishes them to be eternally spiritually submitted to superior male authority. Thanks to Eve. Ordained ministry is the last area where there is an all men’s’ club, there women cannot distract them from their sacred work.


(Tim Teichman) #63

Which is nonsense.

I’ve come to understand that the childlike Eve, who could not tell good from evil - who didn’t have a developed conscience - and who was deceived, didn’t knowingly commit any sin.

But Adam did. He lied to God and, like a child, blamed someone else for his actions. To be fair, before he ate of the fruit, he didn’t know the difference between good and evil either, but then after is when he sinned, perhaps, when he lied.


(Frank Peacham) #64

In my post I was only speaking in generally held beliefs, that Eve sinned and not Adam. Yet I have long held that Eve being deceived in wanting a good thing–to be like God whom she respected. She was not in rebellion against God, just make an innocent mistake. She knew she lacked wisdom and mistakenly believed that eating the fruit was the path to wisdom.

Adam did not blame Eve, he just told the truth that Eve gave him the fruit. Eve told the truth saying that the serpent was responsible. Both Adam and Eve were very honest in answering the garden questions as to their conduct. They hid nothing, lying was not part of their experience.


(Tim Teichman) #65

I like your perspective. I have read at least one author that asserted that the story of the garden is not one of a “fall” into sin, but of humanity growing up. That Christianity seems to have the need to find the fall in the story to give Jesus’ crucifixion meaning, but that many Jews today and more in bible times didn’t read the story that way. They read the episode where Adam and Eve leave the garden as the beginning of the people as we stepped out of the nursery and into the real world, not as a punishment.


#66

What would convince you? I have the feeling that nothing would. If you are using Deborah being a judge and prophetess to support WO, then that is much like people who believe the soul goes to heaven because of one text: 2 Cor. 5:8. And no matter if someone presents 100 other texts showing that Paul and Jesus and Daniel, and David, and Solomon and Job and Ezekiel and other say the “dead are dead”, they will not change their mind.
The WO people rest their case on flimsy support just like Sunday observers do. And no amount of Scriptural quoting changes their mind. I gave you just a start of all the texts showing that “male headship” was God ordained and never changed. It was set up before there was any culture.
There were no female priests who officiated in the services of the temple in the entire Bible.
Jesus did not select even one woman to be an apostle. He could have, but he didn’t.
He is our example in all things.
I am convinced that WO people will not listen to sound biblical reasoning on this subject.
One last point. The Bible does not say Deborah was a leader in Israel. Samson was a judge also, but he certainly was not a priest or religious leader. Would you call him a “leader”? He was a loner, and a bad one at that.
There is a difference between a judge and a pastor, in case you didn’t know.


(reliquum) #67

I fixed it for ya.

The shelving of TOSC, and the charade of the SA015 vote convinces me that sound biblical reasoning is exactly what the anti-wo/headship heresy fears.


(Kevin Seidel) #68

The male headship heresy also makes Acts 10:34 a lie. But it has become clear that that does not matter, rather maintaining power and position is all that matters.


#69

You fixed nothing. Because WO does not have “sound” biblical reasoning at all any more than Sunday observers and the immortal soul have “sound” biblical reasoning.


(Tim Teichman) #70

I think you are probably correct. Your positions are so alien to me that I don’t think I will ever even fully understand how you can reasonably hold them, much less will I agree with them.

The point has been made by many that because men always lead in the bible, that construct is somehow ordained by God. But men do not always lead in the bible.

Deborah was not a judge like a judge we have in our judicial system. She was The Judge at the time of the Judges, where there was one Judge at a time. The Judge was like the King (or Queen) when the nation had no King. As I have quoted, the bible very clearly says she was the leader of the nation:

“Now Deborah, a prophet, the wife of Lappidoth, was leading Israel at that time. 5 She held court under the Palm of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim, and the Israelites went up to her to have their disputes decided.”

The thought in 2 Corinthians is:
“6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 For we live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.”

Most Christians believe the soul goes to heaven (or somewhere) when you die. I actually don’t recall what Adventists teach. Do we have a soul? Where does it go when we die? I do know that we teach that death is like sleep, but that doesn’t explain anything about the state of our souls during death.

In any case verses 7 and 8 do seem to say that we can please God when we are “away” from our body. That is an odd statement. We are taught that while alive we cannot leave our body. So this seems to refer to pleasing God while we are dead. Seems reasonable then that we can might be conscious - how does one please God while asleep?

I have never read or heard any sound biblical reasoning on the subject. Also, I do not think that the bible directly addresses the subject, which is also the position of many church scholars. And if so there can be no such sound reasoning.

Yes, it does. I’ve quoted the passage twice now.

Well that sounds rather snotty, whatever your intention. In any case, Deborah was the head of state - of a Theocracy - and she commanded the army and took credit for their successes. It is recorded that she led the nation. That is what the Judges did before the time of Kings. There are other examples of women leading, several in the first century in the early Christian church.

So at best the examples of male leaders in the bible are incidental, not prescriptive: Males were usually the leaders in the bible because males were usually the leaders in bible times. There is likely no other reason.


(Kevin Seidel) #71

I believe the Adventist position is that we are a soul rather than have a soul. That is a body plus the breath of life makes a living soul. When the body dies the breath returns to God and the soul no longer exists until the breath is reunite with a body at the resurrection.


(Tim Teichman) #72

Yes, that sounds right.

And I’ll add that “The soul goes to heaven when you die” and “When the body dies the breath returns to God” sure sound like a lot of the same thing.

It’s rather like Christian denigration of the Pagans:
They’re wrong because they believed in a pantheon of Gods, from the high Creator God to the lower gods, to personal gods. And that humans could become god-like - or were actually gods.

Christianity is totally different:
We believe in the high Creator God, His Son, the angels, the cherubim, biblical saints who now live in heaven like immortal gods, saints since then that might help you if you pray to them, and your personal deity - your guardian angel (who might not accompany you if you go to the theater), and of course Jesus the man-god. And talking snakes.

Totally different. :slight_smile:


(Kevin Seidel) #73

I guess the difference is that the breath does not include a conscious awareness or some such.


(Tim Teichman) #74

Yea, maybe. Seems like splitting hairs to me though.


(Kevin Seidel) #75

There are a lot of details that I don’t believe we have anyway of verifying this side of the second coming, so I hold them loosely.


(reliquum) #76

The church spent over a million dollars for a prayerful and meaningful study on whether the bible or the SOP either supported Male Only Ordination exclusively or prohibited women specifically. Despite TOSC participants being hand picked by our erstwhile president of the GC ostensibly to return a desired outcome, “stacked” as it was in favor of ANTI-WO, it overwhelmingly found no prohibition against women or any definitive exclusive MOO.
Many are they who have been “steered” wrong by the failure of our leaders to disclose the truth. Those who want THEIR will, not what the scripture or SOP says, will eventually get their wish fulfilled, and we need to pray for them.

Curious isn’t it, that the TOSC results were not disclosed to the world church-or even to the voting delegates! astounding misuse of tithe money-and scriptural wisdom from the study!

Many of the “handpicked” TOSC luminaries also ran/run indy media outlets-and relentlessly spread their bias (like Mr Amazing Factious), and, perhaps uncuriously, have no formal bible or theological training-or academics beyond an HS diploma or GED .

Fortunately our faith community also possesses equally dedicated and Godly theologians and biblical scholars. The TOSC study employed the sharpest and brightest sheep in our little flock-but it seems their prayers, study, and conscience are being rammed.

If we desire coherence in our doctrines and deeds, we need to honestly claim ordination is sacerdotal, or get rid of it completely. A God of free will is not going to force women to bend their knee. to HIM, or to men. We do violence to HIS character, and we do mayhem to the flock by trying. Lets start clearing the stable of the bovine scat. I fear soon the stench will reach, even to the heavens…wo ought instead be a sweet perfume to God


(George Tichy) #77

You are right, it actually doesn’t!
In fact, the concept of “ORDINATION” itself had no “sound biblical reasoning.” Because it’s a concept that cannot be found in the Bible. There was no ordination in Church in the times of either the OT or the NT. It was introduced in the Church by Tertullian some time around the year 200AD.

That’s why it doesn’t have a “sound biblical reasoning.” It’s not in the Bible.


(Kim Green) #78

An interesting thought…would this “breath of life” be more like a Divine electrical charge that goes back to God in Heaven? I tend to agree with Tim @timteichman that it is splitting hairs to use that poetical term and poo poo the notion of “spirit”.


(Kade Wilkinson) #79

Well, that’s not quite true. St. Ignatius of Antioch, on his way to be martyred in Rome circa 107AD, wrote a series of letters, one of which was to Poycarp, the bishop of Smyrna, wherein he asked Polycarp to ordain a bishop to fill his see in Antioch.


(Kim Green) #80

"That’s why it doesn’t have a “sound biblical reasoning.” It’s not in the Bible."

Amazing isn’t it that such prejudice against women isn’t even based on “sound biblical reasoning”. Ordination appears to take on mystical spiritual proportions to those who want to reserve it for themselves.