Is the Church Already Unified on the Issue of Women’s Ordination?


(Kim Green) #81

Are these letters still in existence, Kade?


(George Tichy) #82

It is based merely on “insane male prejudice”… aka The Headship Heresy. Unfortunately still very popular in the SDAC, among those 40% or less members that happen to be males.


(Kim Green) #83

There was a banned former commenter that used to raise the issue of why there were less males in the church. Why do you think that men are opting out of church membership?


(Kade Wilkinson) #84

Yes!

Here is a link where you can find multiple translations of each letter http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ignatius.html

And here is a Wikipedia article about his letters https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignatius_of_Antioch#Letters


(Kim Green) #85

Thanks…interesting.

Why do you think that Tertullian is cited for introducing the concept?


(Kade Wilkinson) #86

I had never seen that claim before a few minutes ago. My guess would be that it arises from a lack of familiarity with the writings of the early Church Fathers, and the early Church in general. SDA institutions tend to begin church history circa 1500, and to completely ignore the testimony of the early Christians.


(George Tichy) #87

I got sound info on the subject here:

The History of Ordination, by AU Professor, Dr.Darius Jankiewicz.

Many more videos on Google.


(Kim Green) #88

Actually, it is not just the SDAs…if you do a quick search it is other churches as well.


(Kade Wilkinson) #89

If he claims that Tertullian invented ordination, he is not providing “sound information.” I don’t expect you to take my word for it, but it shouldn’t be hard to find a patristic scholar in your area to verify this.


(Kade Wilkinson) #90

Yes, most Protestant denominations are allergic to the writings of the early Church. Too much mention of Bishops, Presbyters, and Deacons for their taste, and a complete lack of the Zwinglian heresy.


(Kim Green) #91

Why are they “allergic” to it? Just curious from your perspective…other than what you have mentioned. Also, why do they “ignore” the early Christian Church?


(Kade Wilkinson) #92

Well, some sects believe in progressive revelation. They believe that they know more than those who walked and talked with Christ, and so they ignore the testimony of the early church because they see it as irrelevant.

Others read a bit of the fathers, are made uncomfortable by the mentions of bishops and priests, and the respect shown to Mary, and decide that the testimonies of the early Christians are “fakes” planted by some far-reaching papist plot.


(Kim Green) #93

Thanks for further explanations. It is in keeping with what I know of the viewpoints of the Orthodox churches.


(George Tichy) #94

He never said that Tertullian “invented” ordination. He explains how Tertullian imported the concept from the civil system into the Christian Church.
It was very educational for me, but I am aware that not everyone may have the same sentiment.


#95
  1. I checked 12 versions of Bibles on Judges 4:4. None used the expression “was leading Israel at that time.” You may have used a paraphrased.

  2. We don’t have a soul. We ARE a living soul. Souls die. Eze. 18:4, 20 Dead know nothing. Eccl 9:5,6, 10

  3. There is plenty of evidence to indicate male headship was established from the beginning. But you don’t want to hear it and are convinced it was a cultural thing. Again, you don’t seem to want biblical answers. Male leadership is not incidental. But again, you won’t accept any Bible proof, so why should I bother to share it with you.


#96

> Curious isn’t it, that the TOSC results were not disclosed to the world church-or even to the voting delegates! astounding misuse of tithe money-and scriptural wisdom from the study!

This “hidden TOSC” is a conspiracy idea I have seen floating among WO people. That document has been on-line for some time for all to see.

Just to clarify my position. I am not talking about women “ordination”. I am talking about male headship. You will not find one woman priest in the OT. You will not find one woman apostle in the NT. You will not find Moses appointing one woman among the 70 elders. Women were not involved in the sanctuary services. I am talking about “roles” here. Even in the Godhead, there are “roles” that each plays.
Again presenting biblical texts doesn’t seem to make any difference to those who support WO.


(George Tichy) #97

Oh, we all know that! It’s been online, and anyone can “see” it, but… can they read/understand it? Obviously NOT!

By the way, I agree that the TOSC ended up being part of a conspiracy. It was supposed to come up with a report favoring Ted Wilson’s intention to use it as support for his (conspiracy of) discrimination of women approach. Then, when the report was not “favorable,” the $1 Mi+ “research” was just quickly archived (aka shelved) and other means were utilized to advance the conspiracy.

The conspiracy against women ordination, pro discrimination, did not stop there. We all can clearly see the many maneuvers that happened after that ugly event at SA2015. Every AC after that was another attempt to subvert the current established order in which Unions have the authority to manage ordination.

Oh, boy, want to talk about conspiracy? Real conspiracy? Yes, there is one for sure!!! And it may have “grave consequences,” since it can split the Church. Which appears to be Ted Wilson’s train’s final destination.


(reliquum) #98

Yet-it was NOT translated or explained to the delegates.
It was not mentioned-it’s findings were not only ignored from the podium, they were subverted.
More TOSC members were for accommodating ending discrimination-and they gave recommendations regarding how to implement it’s scriptural/SOP findings.

“Male leadership” led Eve straight to deception-yet that scriptural meta-narrative has no meaning to male supremacists such as your self.

“Conspiracy theories” indeed. A leader who commissioned a million dollar +ithe funded $tudy on the subject after handpicking the “right” candy dates, a leader who then dismisses said study, subverts it’s findings, and then ramrods “his way” by crafting a "heads i win, tails you lose “vote” is not a leader befitting a church which purports itself to be “set apart” (ordained??) as “the remnant”.

Let me ask you-why does TW want to take the church back to the way it never was before?
We have always had both male and female ordinands, including our female cofounder. Our policies and our practices have never had explicit gender-discriminatory ordination prohibition.

No, in the lens of history, we are on the wrong side of this if we believe God gave Adam a closer seat at the Cosmic Ketubah. Many have been deceived. Pray. Look for eye salve. Take off the fig leaves-in the eyes of God a clerical collar is a terribly tragic sartorial choice, when there are robes of righteousness available for ALL. Women. Men. Children. Feminists.
Even power drunk Masculinists.


(Kevin Seidel) #99

Nothing like creating God in our own image. It makes it easier to get that last “perfect” generation. I think this is one of those areas that will only be resolved by one side dying out.


(Kim Green) #100

Culture and time are already taking care of the “dying out” phase…in fact, if attitudes don’t change in the GC, they might as well save money and move operations to the Developing Worlds where “Headship Heresy” will be more acceptable to those cultures. Perhaps, in time, there will be a separate GC Headquarters there…who knows? It could evolve to that in the foreseeable future…