Is the Church Already Unified on the Issue of Women’s Ordination?


(Kim Green) #101

" 1. There is plenty of evidence to indicate male headship was established from the beginning. But you don’t want to hear it and are convinced it was a cultural thing. Again, you don’t seem to want biblical answers. Male leadership is not incidental. But again, you won’t accept any Bible proof, so why should I bother to share it with you."

Have you entertained the idea that Tim actually knows what you consider “biblical evidence” and has a differing opinion? Or…is your “interpretation” the only right one? It is a bit of a rhetorical question…so you don’t really need to answer.


(Kevin Seidel) #102

Given the resurgence of flat earth proponents, I’m not that optimistic that bad ideas will really die out. I’m just hoping they will stop blocking the gospel.


(Tim Teichman) #103

No, not a paraphrased. It’s direct quote from the NIV. Other versions that I noticed use “leading” or “the leader” are the NIRV, the NET, the CEV, and the CEB.

You can read many different translations here - side by side:
https://biblehub.com/judges/4-4.htm

The original when transliterated reads:
“Now Deborah, the wife a prophetess, a woman of Lapidoth [or the wife of Lapidoth], she was judging Isreal at that time.”
(https://biblehub.com/interlinear/judges/4.htm)
Translators are not sure if Lapidoth is a person or a place or a description of Deborah’s appearance or demeanor. If Lapidoth is a person, then the original text is awkward and bad Hebrew. If a place, then it works better. Or Lapidoth could mean “fiery” or “striking”, describing her demeanor.

The original word used for “judging” or “leading” is “shaphat”, which means
"act as law-giver, judge, governor (giving law, deciding controversies and executing law, civil, religious, political, social; both early and late): "
(https://biblehub.com/hebrew/8199.htm)

The word is used in other places such as in Solomon’s Prayer in 1 Kings 3. Solomon pleads with God:

“Therefore give to your servant an understanding heart to judge Your people.”
(https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_kings/3.htm)


(Kim Green) #104

Yes…the “Flat Earthers”…there are those “Bad Ideas”. Not sure that even those “Bad Ideas” will die off, but I know that they will not completely block the Gospel. The GC has no control over the Gospel and how it is spread ultimately. I know that they may not agree with my assessment, but it is…what it is. God is no respecter of persons or things.


(Frank Peacham) #105

Jesus is the New Adam who took the place of fallen Adam (see Romans). Since Jesus did not fail, he has reversed all the consequences of Adam and Eve’s sins. True. “There is therefore no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus.” Eve has been redeemed by the obedience of Jesus, now Adam & Eve are equal as they were in the beginning. To recommend that women should be in submission to men, because of their garden fall, is for you to teach that Jesus failed as the New Adam and the salvation he offers is void. There is universal priesthood now, male headship is a relic of the past.


#106

You are right, it actually doesn’t!
In fact, the concept of “ORDINATION” itself had no “sound biblical reasoning.” Because it’s a concept that cannot be found in the Bible. There was no ordination in Church in the times of either the OT or the NT. It was introduced in the Church by Tertullian some time around the year 200AD.

That’s why it doesn’t have a “sound biblical reasoning.” It’s not in the Bible.

For the purposes of semantics, I will avoid the word ordination. I will instead point out that the “blessing” that the father gave to the first born son, was never given to a female. Gen. 48: 14 talks about “laid his hands” on the heads. Aaron was anointed by Moses, consecrated, and set apart as priests. Exo 28:41 Saul and David were anointed kings by Samuel. No woman was ever set aside to do the work of the priesthood or king.
Mark 3:14. Jesus appointed (NKJV) ordained (KJV) twelve men. " That they might be with Him and that He might send them out to preach…" No woman was set aside like this.
Luke 9:1 Jesus gave these 12 men power and authority… Not to any woman.
Titus 1:5 Paul tells Titus to “ordain” “appoint” elders. None were women,

There are others, but my guess is you are not interested. There is in both the OT and the NT “ordination” " appointment" “setting aside” " anointing" of men to the priesthood, kingship, apostle, and elders. But it was not done to women.


(reliquum) #107

Perhaps we ought require women cannot inherit, own land, hold office, vote…
after all, these roles are not found in scripture.

Kalfoof, you exhibit a special kind of truculence.

Try a larger font, you are not shouting loud enough.


(Tim Teichman) #108

Or own a cell phone. Or drive a car. Or posses a bank account or credit card. Or vote. All not biblical.

But of course all this is fine for men because men are in charge.


(George Tichy) #109

Thank you for quoting my words in bold, this way they will call the attention of more people. Which is great.


(Tim Teichman) #110

I just watched RBG. Wow! Brings new meaning to your crusade for women in the church.

Warning: If you don’t tear up watching this, there may be something wrong with you.


(Allen Shepherd) #111

There is no hope.

If one position is heresy, and the other has no sound biblical reasoning behind it, then there can be no compromise as it would be immoral for either side to do so. (quote one is pretty judgmental besides.)

The author of the article is on much surer ground, acknowledging the cultural pinnings of each position, that is that each is grounded in culture and not morality.

So long as each side makes it a moral issue, then there can be no compromise without guilt. Recognizing that each position is cultural can lead to compromise.

Trump followers might feel the same way about him. Idolization is not even close to an answer.


(Ian m fraser) #112

As George Tichey and I have been saying, the sooner the GC moves out of Silver Spring to Africa the sooner the agitation about WO and MH will fade from these columns. The dissident members of the Colombia Union will be out of sound and so out of mind! Annual Council will focus on spreading the gospel.:sunglasses:


(George Tichy) #113

Unfortunately people don’t listen to us…
I think those people in Africa should demand that the GC moves to their Continent. Or else! Meaning that they will create their own GC. Period. :roll_eyes:


(Allen Shepherd) #114

?? General Conference is a really inclusive term.

But the Southeastern Cal. Conf., i believe, has legally distanced itself form the GC, meaning that there are in a way split from the rest of the church.

We can see where this is going.


(George Tichy) #115

Discrimination VS Non-discrimination. That’s all.


(Allen Shepherd) #116

Well, as I said, if we couch this in moral terms, there will be no compromise.

But George, I wish you a good evening and a pleasant sleep. signing off…


(George Tichy) #117

Exactly Allen, there will be no compromise. Morals are not compromisable in my book. Sorry.


(Kim Green) #118

Yes…if only it were the true “Gospel”.

At this rate, I can see that the Lord will be “tarrying” for millenia waiting for them to understand what it truly is (Gospel). Perhaps our decendents can continue to debate the Issue…as some wait to be “perfected”.


(Kim Green) #119

You are definitely seeing the “position” of compromise…but is it possible to get the anti-WO to accept this? From what I have seen on this site- they are adamently against their position being seen as nothing short of “biblically” correct. How could this entrenched idea possibly change, Allen?


(George Tichy) #120

Sure it could, but it won’t. Those who perpetrate discrimination against other human beings need psychological treatment since their addiction is not a faith/spiritual problem but rather… well, … an addiction! :face_with_raised_eyebrow: