Is the Church Already Unified on the Issue of Women’s Ordination?


(reliquum) #141

I’ll toy with your bait a bit, but with the caveat they are not really questions…

Um, i’d suggest you answer your trap, I surely cannot answer for him. I will say his calling Photina into evangelical ministry before his 12 seminarians is suggestive, if you have ears. I’d also suggest Jesus allowing himself to be anointed by a prostitutes hair is equally instructive. Further, that women stayed to minister to him in the hellish midnight of soul he willingly took on gethsemane says the same. As does the sunday morning sepulcher interlude. Sadly, few have ears to hear the spirit, seeing only the letter.

Again, a trap. The backside of your “question” has you backhandedly equating yourself with him. But, since headship claims eternal subjugation of jesus, perhaps it is right for you to do so. You must be ordained, then?

Yes, as Saul of Tarsus, he did. I will not nibble at your low hanging assumption bait.

How did Jesus deal with the twelve seminarians who dissed the thirsty samarian woman (yeah, that one, the first evangelist/phenom)?
I can imagine there are many stories yet to be revealed…but some have no eyes, having seen all they want to, and claiming summation of truth prematurely.


#142

I hope that you realize that this text has nothing to do with the headship issue, right?


(reliquum) #143

Have often wondered if the reason male headship is so deeply and insidiously embedded is because those in religious leadership (men) have failed to either promote the true gospel and have simultaneously permitted that devilish scapegoat called culture to reshape their church,
by staunchly refusing women a seat at the table they can somehow take claim for at least one success.

Asked at the pearly gates by St Peter “what have you done for me”,
will the right answer be “we kept those dangerous and excluded womens
from passing out more invitations to the heavenly celebration”


#144

Tim,

Thank you for the link. I has already written about that in another post and I can tell you that the author is inaccurate which is not surprising since you can see from the start that he has an agenda (Exploring the biblical theology of Christian egalitarianism). Everything he said is nothing new and has been used, reused, and abused by those who advocate the cause of women in leadership.


(Tim Teichman) #145

Everything he wrote is biblical and accurate and the biblical texts show that women belong in leadership roles just as much as men within the Christian church, and that those men who fight to maintain a special standing above women are misogynists and worse - without even the biblical backing they claim.

I pity the church that continues to propagate such misogynist teachings - that men are superior to women. What could be a worse travesty?


(Allen Shepherd) #146

I think you are talking to the wrong guy here. I have never said Male headship was a heresy. I used the two quotes to show the poles in the debate.

Carry on…


#147

Galatians 3:28 is an overarching principle of God’s government, His philosophy of dealing with humans. His principle of personality like Love. How women are treated in His government is not exempt from the principle of Galatians 3:28. It applies to everything. It is not narrowly tailored just for “salvation.”

God has made it plain that He is no respector of persons. He does not say anywhere, “Oh, no, woman at the well, don’t go evangelize your home town I forgot! You are female!”

The “Gardner” did not say, “Please go tell the men, Peter and the others, that I have risen from the dead. Oh, wait!! You are females. I forgot. Let me find a male somewhere since that is a man’s job.”

Jesus did not say, “Go to all nations and preach the Gospel. But only men, please. Women have other duties and I forbid them to be authorized to preach. Be sure you make sure you are in compliance with these commandments: no women!”

He did not say to Phillip’s daughters, “Oh, wait! I forgot. You are females. Can’t have females authorized to preach the Gospel. I’ll have to wait until Andrew’s sons come along.”

Galatians 3:28 is a Biblical, principle of Heaven and earth. No roles. Equal humanity.


(Allen Shepherd) #148

Well, the pants (er, I mean points, Freudian slip for sure…) she makes are a bit biased and not that clear cut. I have heard them before as well. I am not impressed that the piece is not a stretch. Just my take.


(Allen Shepherd) #149

You are making too much of this. The text is not the know all hear all do all of the NT on this. The “Male headship Heresy” is closer to the truth on the matter. But not the exact truth either.

But I should just be quiet, arguing this does not help.


#150

I read it carefully and looked up all the texts and Greek words. I will simply say that I agree with Nymous. The reading into the texts was prevalent. Just one example…Kuria does not mean Lord.
Anyway, I found it a stretch. It certainly is not my understanding of those texts and examples.


#151

My first response…“Good grief”. You avoided answering those questions completely. And your declaring them not questions is, well, not surprising to me. I just shook my head at your reasoning.


(Kade Wilkinson) #152

This clearly illustrates is what makes ordination in Zwinglian denominations such as SDAism so different than that in Apostolic Churches. For Zwinglians, the only role of the clergy seems to be an evangelist and homilist. The SDAs who oppose WO likely retain a sliver of orthodox (small o) belief, and less fully accept the Zwinglian heresy. It even seems like the official SDA church manual, if the version found on the internet is current, has declined to go full Zwinglian.30


(George Tichy) #153

Job well done.

I am glad you have the energy to still deal with those trap questions and distortions aiming to prove male headship or male ordination in the Bible. I kind of quit discussing the issue in depth as I used to do before.

Every 34 days or so… there is another individual coming here repeating the same nonsensical arguments defending the headship heresy and discrimination of women. And we have to repeat the same arsenal of arguments again, and again. Geeeeshhh, that is tiring…

Tired of this nonsense. One day I finally thought, “Those people choose to function intellectually and spiritually at a stone age level. Just leave them alone. Discussing it with them will do no good to them anyway.”

But I still encourage those who have the stamina for it to do it for as long as they can take the nonsense from the other side, the discriminators’ side.


#154

Tim,

Here is a reprint of what I wrote elsewhere concerning the same subject…

Now, concerning Phoebe, Junia, and Priscilla, we have to be careful here.

Phoebe is mentioned only once in the New Testament in Romans 16:1 and it is said that she was a servant of the church (the Greek term used diakonos). The text doesn’t say she was preaching or teaching. In fact, Romans 16:2 says that she has been a succourer (other translations say: patroness, someone who helps) of many. A verb of the same root as diakonos is used in Luke 8:3 where speaking of women who ministered (diakoneo) to Jesus. So, considering the context, and Paul indicating that she had been a succourer of many, it is more appropriate to think that Phoebe was someone who had ministered to people in general, and to Paul in particular.

Concerning Junia, again, we have only one reference in the New Testament and not much is said about her activities. The only thing we know is that she was “of note” among the apostles. This doesn’t mean automatically that she was an apostle. Anyway, nothing in the text what she was teaching or preaching.

As for Priscilla, every time she is mentioned, she is mentioned with her husband. So, in 1 Cor 16:19 the text doesn’t say that she was a church leader: In this verse, we read:

“The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.”

So, the verse says that Aquila and Priscilla had church in their house, not that Priscilla was the leader of that church. For all what we know, Aquila could have been the leader of that church, even if the church was meeting in their house.

Also, the text of Acts 18:26 says that Aquila and Priscilla explained the way of God to Apollos but the verse doesn’t say it was a church situation. In fact, the NIV says: “When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately” while some other versions use the expression: “they took him aside” (for example NLT, ESV, NAS,). But regardless, in this situation, we don’t see Priscilla occupying a teaching position in the church but rather her and her husband having a personal Bible study with Apollos (“they took him aside”).

In summary, nothing in the Bible indicates, for sure, that the three women that you mentioned were leaders in the church or people having any authority though they certainly were active and had ministries in the church.


(Allen Shepherd) #155

George, making this a moral issue, and disparaging your opponents as neanderthals will never gain a single even half a point. You do not apparently want resolution.


(George Tichy) #156

Allen, it’s more than obvious now that there will be no resolution to the problem for as long as some people keep preaching/defending that women are not fully human beings.

The only resolution acceptable for this problem is eliminating discrimination of women from our Church, and stopping this wave of male abuse that is being preached as “headship.”


(Allen Shepherd) #157

Opposing WO does not mean you believe women are not fully human beings. Such exaggeration only compounds the problem. How can you even say that? This is a more nuanced issue. Commissioning shows you are wrong here.


(George Tichy) #158

Allen, I am not longer taking the sugar coated statements about this issue. We had enough of the nonsense. You don’t agree with me, this is OK, we don’t have to discuss this again for the 96th time.

At least, don’t count on me on engaging in it again. I have no time left anymore to discuss with discriminators of women over and over again. That’s all. You believe in discrimination and think it’s such a great moral and Christian conduct? Fine, it’s your issue. Just stay with it. I can’t tolerate this immoral thinking and lack of human sensitivity anymore. Done with it.


(Ian m fraser) #159

I do not realize that. It t says that male or female are equal in Christ’s service.


(Kim Green) #160

"The “Male headship Heresy” is closer to the truth on the matter. But not the exact truth either."

Is this kinda like being almost pregnant, Allen? :wink: :smiley: