Is There a Place for Bob and Others Like Her in the Adventist Church?

A map has four corners, but the earth is not a map. North, south, east and west is four points but that doesn’t mean you can go north, south, east or west and if d a point.
Is goggle your Bible?

1 Like

There are lots of things that are not covered in the Bible, but that doesn’t mean God believes they don’t exist. All scripture is given by inspiration.
My question was simple; tell me where it says in the Bible the earth is flat and where it says the Sun, moon and stars revolve around a flat earth.
Jesus was the light before he created the Sun and he had the ability to know how long a day was before he created the earths Sun.

Google loosely functions, for me, as a quick source of all kinds of information (as an encyclopedia, dictionary,telephone book, commentary, etc. all rolled into one.)

Your comment that a map has four corners implies that the map is flat. A person’s comment referring to the four corners of the earth may be implying that he thinks the earth is flat, as a map is flat. On the other hand a person using this phrase may be speaking metaphorically.

I was not intending to be flippant when I referred you to Google. Before I typed it I looked up my suggested words and found information about the Bible mentioning them and providing the verses in which they were mentioned. Some of the Google articles mentioned differing interpretations of “four corners” by theologians.

I meant no offense. I wasn’t intending to belittle you. I’m sorry if you took it that way. I realize now as I reread my blog entry to you that my comment was short and could be interpreted as being dismissive.

3 Likes

Here is my concern. We shouldn’t be saying Moses and Paul believed the earth was flat if we can’t actually prove in the Bible where Moses and Paul said the earth was flat. We might be able reference lots of “experts” that say Moses and Paul must have believed the earth was flat, but they really don’t carry any weight if they can’t provide clear scripture to back up their personal beliefs.
There are “experts” that don’t believe any of the Bible. There are “experts” that claim Jesus didn’t die on the cross. There are “experts” that claim lots of things but that doesn’t mean they are right.
I accept your apology.

3 Likes

I agree that we should have a degree of understanding and certainty before we make pronouncements on texts. I also think that it may be helpful to express what we think the Bible might be saying so that, through discussion, we may get a better, more accurate understanding.

3 Likes

I want to thank Linden Williams for bringing this issue, and how poorly Adventists respond to it, to our attention is such a meaningful way, and the Spectrum Website for providing the vehicle for this. It is a pity that the discussion here has been lapsing in the direction of theological argument, distracting us from the serious issue the article raises. If the real test of Christianity is the extent to which we love one another and especially those who are different and needy (see Matthew 25), we Adventists have not done well, as this article suggests so starkly. We are too intent on supporting our belief that there is no ambiguity about gender or sexual identity, and that anything that suggests that we are prejudiced most be shot down. The existence of intersex people surely must give us pause in this, as do those risking sex-change operations, and gay and lesbian identities. Our solution has been to reject the reality of such differences by calling them sinful choices and rejecting those with such feelings and identities. May God teach us to love and follow the example of Jesus.

18 Likes

What was the object that held the planets in orbit before the sun was created?

6 Likes

This is getting off topic, but where in scripture does it say the other planets in our solar system here were created before our Sun?

1 Like

Thanks Lynden for writing this and bringing this to the forefront. I see it is easy for the commenters to get off topic and go off on tangents. But I hope that with continued exposure we can help the church (leaders in particular) understand what the real meaning of this article is. Our church doesn’t have a clue what it means to have a sexual orientation (LGBQA) and certainly can’t comprehend the fact that genders are often not binary (TI in the LGBTQIA). The longer the church refuses to take this seriously and address these issues, the more suicides we will have to be responsible for. Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden was a great story for Sabbath School, but there are too many holes that we will only find out in heaven for us to use that as our compass for everyday living here in 2020. If we are truly honest with ourselves those who fit the Edenic model are more of a minority than we are willing to admit.

15 Likes

Thank you for writing this. I know some intersex individuals and a number of trans individuals, and in most cases they have had life experiences that most of us would shudder to have experienced. Why should such individuals need to keep suffering in these ways? You have hit it on the head, science and medicine now has a good understanding of these types of people, and we need no longer treat them badly out of ignorance. They are not freaks, and they certainly have not chosen to be the way they are, they simply represent normal variation in sexual development. All of those I have known are lovely people, just like most people I know, but my oh my, their lives are often made so much harder because of the lack of compassion and understanding displayed by many people, and sadly many of the more judgmental ones are Christians.

I hope this represents just one more opportunity for people to gain some understanding of what intersex and trans people have to face. I hope it also leads to many in the church digging more deeply into this and learning that we need to love these individuals, affirm them, include them, let them know they are part of God’s beloved family.

11 Likes

Read Joshua 10 where Joshua prayed that the sun stand still. He didn’t pray for the earth to stop turning. The ancients, including Bible writers, believed the world was flat and the sun, moon and stars moved around it.
I don’t think this disproves the Bible, but it does show that science advances with time, and is not chained down to many ancient, disproved beliefs. The Bible itself must be seen as a product of it’s time subject to further interpretations as God plan unfolds and more understanding is found.

5 Likes

Just because Joshua prayed the Sun would stand still doesn’t prove God told Joshua, Moses, Paul or anyone else he created a flat earth. You can say the Bible writers believed the earth was flat all you want but this conversation would be resolved if you could provide the actual verses where God/Jesus says the sun, moon and stars revolve around a flat earth.
I’m sure some ancient people believed the earth was flat, but when we say that means everyone believed that and therefore the Bible is wrong we go to far.

1 Like

In Genesis 1:2

“Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.”

1 Like

I agree there is nothing wrong with discussing what we think scripture is saying. Exactly why I asked for scriptural proof God told all the Bible writers the sun revolved around a flat earth.

Clyde,

Your leading this discussion off on a tangent. Could it be that you want to judge and point fingers or are you willing to except the fact that we are all flawed, including even you. We all need a loving and caring place where we can feel safe. That should be our churches. I would hate for anyone to find out in the judgment that we were kept out because we couldn’t stop pointing fingers at other for what we perceive as sinful behavior.

I doubt that God told or inspired either Moses or Paul about the physical attributes of the earth. My point is that during these periods in history, virtually everyone believed in a flat earth. That is common knowledge. But this discussion shouldn’t be about that but about the pain we are causing people who are suffering.

8 Likes

There is no Sun, earth or plants present in this verse. You can look at this and see the Holy Spirit floating over deep oceans on a dark planet earth while I see an invisible God coming to a empty part of space to create a new galaxy.
Since the earth was formless and empty it had no deep oceans. The “waters” were in deep space in a formless state. Jesus was the light of the world. Light is energy. Energy equal Mass.

Thanks for your clarity and willingness to stand in the gap.

4 Likes

Clyde,
Moses wrote that it was a sin to wear clothes with two different kinds of thread, that men should not cut their sideburns, that it is a sin to touch a pig. This list could go on and on, but that isn’t the point. The point is that God told you not to judge. This came out of the mouth of Jesus himself. Stop this subterfuge and look at the point of the piece. Whether you think it is a sin to be Bob isn’t the point. The point is how you treat Bob. If you push him out of your home, your church and your place of business, you are going to have to answer for that in the judgment. Only God judges, not you, not me.

8 Likes

So how do you explain Genesis 1:3 in regards to light (day) and darkness (night). What object caused the darkness once light was created?

4 Likes

Forget transgender women, our obsolete, outmoded, outdated Adventist hierarchy is incapable of even accepting / acknowledging real women, who have no gender dysphoria—-denying that they have enough intrinsic value to become conference presidents, or God forbid,
GC President

Meanwhile Bishop Katherine Jeffers Schori presided as head of the Episcopal Church from 2006-2015.

Episcopal Bishop Gene Robinson, an openly gay man, was elected a bishop in 2003 and served as such until his retirement in 2013.

Meanwhile, my own congregation, the First United Methodist Church, Portland Oregon, has this significant statement highlighted in every worship bulletin, and on their website:

All are welcome to participate in the FULL LIFE
of the church including all
RACES,
AGES,
ABILITIES,
CLASSES,
GENDER IDENTITIES,
SEXUAL ORIENTATIONS.

Note that this congregation is not merely accepting of transgenders and gays to “ warm the pews “ , but to participate in the a FULL LIFE of the church, meaning they can hold church office, or sit on the church board.

Where on our planet, is there any Adventist church, with such an inclusive welcome printed in their weekly worship bulletin?

Our miserable misogyny, homophobia, and transgender bias is decidedly unloving and unchristian.

What is deplorable is that our denomination which boasts a major medical school, LOMA LINDA, should tolerate a hierarchy which is so woefully ignorant about basic scientific / medical facts relating to transgender and homosexuality.

18 Likes