Yes, me too. So why do you?
Most of the 4 Gospels is the Sadducees and the Pharisees and the Scribes
and the Lawyers complaining to Jesus that HE is BadMouthing the current
Religion and HOW the church is run. The attitudes of the Leaders. The
All Jesus wanted was a Church REPRESENTATIVE of God, His Father.
Most those on AToday, Spectrum want is a Church REPRESENTATIVE
of God, the Father in the 21st Century.
I agree with you, Leroy87. It is difficult for a leader when people dissect every word that they write and draw intent that may not have even been there. Ted Wilson was placed in this position of leadership by God for a purpose and reason. It seems like those that state that President Wilson is causing disunity are the very ones that are promoting disunity.
They set up kings without my consent; they choose princes without my approval. With their silver and gold they make idols for themselves to their own destruction. Hosea 8:4
No problem with that.
There is nothing wrong in wanting a church representative of God in the 21st century.
But we have to lift each other up. And if someone lacks of something, we can already see what is good and then add to it. After all, none of us can say that they have everything. This is why we have the church. We complete each other.
Like Paul said, one person plants the seed, another waters it, and another one reaps. But what would happen to the harvest if everyone is tearing down the other ones just because each of them thinks that what they do is the most important thing or that the other ones don’t know what they are doing, or whatever? The harvest would not go far, would it?
I wonder why you wonder and why it bothers you. There are people everywhere like this.
At the same time, your perceptions are not universally shared. Many of us are here out of concern for the church and where it is going, among other things. One very valid way to express that concern is critiquing our church leaders when we perceive that they are acting in ways that are harmful to the church.
For example, Ted. He has said outrageous things. Harmful things.
And lately, it is clear that he is dismissing the progressive aspirations of the NAD and sucking up to regressive parts of the church - instead of encouraging them to move forward he encourages their attitudes and behaviors. He looks to the past as a model for the future, which is a non-starter. That never works.
Even the Scriptures point out that people back in those days often tried to kill the messengers of information they did not like.
We see this pattern often on open idea commenting opportunities like here at Spectrum. Since childhood, I and others were taught that to criticize church leaders was essentially inviting attacks of bears to carry out the deaths of critics.
To evaluate, critique, and make observations is being a faithful, responsible member of an organization. After all, leaders are elected in our church. How can we honestly carry out this process without open discussion?
The “marketplace of ideas” still has a ways to go in our Church. God is open. Honest. He invites our own honesty. Thank you, Spectrum for providing a place for open discussions.
I fail to see the Church uplifted with the leader’s continuous attacks on women who are spiritually gifted, qualified, and credentialed to be dedicated pastors and ordained ministers. This is essentially breaking one of the two legs of the church to intentionally slow down the Church’s progress through insisting on purely genetic preferences.
This deserves open discussion.
Nymous, I agree with you. Seems like a different spirit between the two in the short time I’ve read through some of the comments here.
Disbelief in the inspired testimonies is also a sign of falling away from being God’s true followers. Once you have that light you are accountable for the light given. Yes, we should go to the Bible first in all things. SOP is the lesser light, but still light.
It is with sadness and I don’t understand, if people are throwing out the investigative judgment, trinity, spirit of prophesy, and some of the end-time prophesies, why are they still calling themselves Seventh-day Adventists?
I believe you can have it both ways, in a balanced middle ground sort of way. Yes, we are saved totally by Christ’s righteousness but then we continue in the process of sanctification. That is where we apply Biblical principles and guidance from the Spirit of Prophesy for direction for our lives, lifestyle, if that is what you want to call it. We chose because of what Christ did for us to live a life that is growing closer and closer to the original plan he had for us. In heaven, we will continue to grow in knowledge and grace and reflect His character more and more.
Nice. Point out a biblical imperative for that one, if you will. And if you are referring to every jot and tittle of EGW, she’s been proven to have fraudulently claimed her words were inspired directly by the Angel of Light. This is not a deniable fact, so where does that leave a person? It leaves them on shaky ground indeed.
I can see we are not getting anywhere in this conversation and I don’t want to take up any more of either of our time. We may agree to disagree. I believe in our church, I believe in its doctrines, I believe in the inspired writings of EGW. I don’t follow offshoots calling the church Babylon and that we should leave. I don’t follow people with conspiracy theories at either extreme ends. I don’t follow people who denounce and discredit the leadership until the leadership is proven to be leading people astray from sound Biblical teachings. We are entering troublesome, shaking times in the our church, and people and pastors we trusted will fall away. All I can do and we can do is stay as grounded as possible in the Bible and allow the Holy Spirit to lead us daily, watch and pray.
Neither do I.
Neither do I.
I agree, and that means not following church leadership just as much as it means not following “every wind of doctrine.”
In the end, the church isn’t going to save you. Following and keeping the doctrines isn’t going to save you. Give Matthew 25 a read and you’ll find out about who it is that is welcomed into the Kingdom of the Father.
No problem with that. But where is the limit between being a faithful and responsible member of the church and simply a bitter mind criticizing just for the sake of criticizing? We have to be careful not to fool ourselves.
Precisely. Unfortunately, it is not sure that God would recognize what passes for honesty here.
Where do you see an attack on women in the article that Ted Wilson wrote? Have you read his article? Or are you just saying this because you don’t like the man?
President Wilson’s behavior when at an Australian Ordination Event SHOWS
President Wilson’s mind-set against Full Fledged Women Pastors. He wouldn’t
even put his hand on her to BLESS HER in her coming ministry.
A SHAME! for such a high ranking personage in the church to do such a thing!!
Indeed. The machinations of organized institution/aka denomination (whether the Sanhedrin or the GC) certainly brings honesty to the fore.
We do have to be careful to not become mere “respecters of persons” absent discrimination of what is right and wrong.
That should be a quick decision on several points, you know, like discrimination, or demanding “respect of a gender” at the expense of subjugation of the other.
Any leader who defends discrimination, and does so by “sleight of power” deserves criticism.
EGW once believed the GC was the highest authority of God on earth and then later on discarded the belief. Is that a sign that EGW was not a “true” follower of God?
My sister and I talk about this a lot. We were heavily indoctrinated into the traditional SDA belief system in the 1970s and 80s. At home and every week in Sabbath School and church and then later through our entire school life we were taught from birth to be faithful SDA church members.
When we were children we must have spent hundreds of hours listening to the Adventist “My Bible Story Hour” tapes which were infused with EGW’s extra-biblical material. Until I had my own children and purchased the “My Bible” stories as CDs to teach them the Bible I was unaware that the stories were not strictly Biblical. I lent one of the CDs to my Methodist neighbor for her children and she told me she had no idea where they got some of the information since it wasn’t from the Bible–it was the Adam and Eve story! That was the first time I really read the story in the Bible carefully and noticed the differences between what it said and what was in my head.
My sister and I have both tried to re-learn the Bible as it was actually written as adults, but it is difficult. We wish we had a Bible that had the SDA parts in a different color so we could identify them–but as you have noted elsewhere Carol, this phenomena is not something many SDAs have any interest in highlighting or at times even admitting exists.
I have read the latest Spectrum magazine which republished the 1919 Bible conference transcripts and it is as disturbing as ever to think that 100 years later there are so many SDA church members who are unaware of its existence let alone the contents of this important document. Thank you for publishing it again.
I just finishing reading the five volume set of the bibliography of the life of Ellen White by her grandson, Arthur White. I found no evidence of your claim that she changed her position regarding the General Conference. Throughout her lifetime she had counsels and warnings to give to people at various levels of church organization but she also supported the work they did at all levels and continued to believe that God was directing their work. Our church structure is based on a chain of command going up and down through the levels. They are to work in unison and not act independently. Our church manual clearly defines the process and levels and reasons for them.
Check Testimonies Volume 5 on the whole chapter regarding “The Nature and Influence of the “Testimonies”, pgs. 654-691. “It is Satan’s plan to weaken the faith of God’s people in the Testimonies.” Satan knows how to make his attacks. He works upon minds to excite jealously and dissatisfaction toward those at the head of the work. The gifts are next questioned; then, of course, they have but little weight, and instruction given through vision is disregarded.” “Next, follows skepticism in regard to vital points of our faith, the pillars of our position, then doubt as to the Holy Scriptures, and then the downward march to perdition. When the Testimonies, which were once believed, are doubted and given up, Satan knows the deceived ones will not stop at this; and he redoubles his efforts till he launches them into open rebellion, which become incurable and ends in destruction.” “By giving place to doubts and unbelief in regard to the work of God, and by cherishing feelings of distrust and cruel jealousies, they are preparing themselves for complete deception. They rise up with bitter feelings against the ones who dare speak of their errors and reprove their sins.” 5T, pg. 672
Why would you ever expect to find anything else in such a publication?
Quoting from that page:
“The question of the great need of the soul deserves in these meetings of the [General] Conference far more attention, and many questions that are tossed into the Conference should never appear, be worked out in your State Conferences. It has become habit [of the GC] to pass laws that do not always bear the signature of heaven.” EGW - November 4, 1889, Ms. 6-1889.
Amen to that!
“It has been some years since I have considered the General Conference as the voice of God.” EGW August 26,1898, in 1899 GC Bulletin, p. 74.