Was David bisexual? Is Sodom and Gomorrah really a reference to homosexuality or something else? On this episode of Imago Gei, I talk with Matthew Korpman about his book Saying No to God and the insights he shares in the chapter "Saying No to Homophobia."
I listened to the whole recording by Korpman, I guess a teacher at La Sierra.
He has clever ways of explaining away the texts that condemn homosexuality. Notes that conservative scholars do not agree with him, but doesn’t answer their objections but just assumes his are correct. Spectrum might consider asking a conservative scholar to answer Korpman’s points, for there are answers. The interviewer was just in awe of his scholarship. not really helpful when there is another quite valid view that has been taught for millennia, and it is not just homophobia, a rather judgmental take on an opinion about a deadly act.
But if you really do not want to explore the other side, then well, just present one side only.
Maybe the magazine should be called “Only Liberal Allowed”. More honest at least.
I keep waiting for the historical critical methodologists to discover on an archaeological dig an ancient men’s room door with a scratching that says something like “For a good time, call David or Jonathan.” Would make this speculation more believable perhaps.
Twisting the Bible again?
It’s time to realize that many of the great men of the Bible probably had sex with other men. While this is pretty much a guess in the podcast, it is fun to think that David enjoyed sexual intercourse with Jonathan. That’s probably what made Saul so mad at him all the time. A bright artistic young man making love with his son and his daughter who was the human prize for killing Goliath.
And who even knows if these stories are even real? It’s time that we reinvent them for our age since we now know for sure that God, or your dirty of choice, has bigger issues to deal with than the direction in which your genitals point.
David and Jonatthan ?? well, we do not know how to understand this very one remark in the Bible, illustrating their relationship. But, let me stress, Sodom and Gomorrha ? But Lots attempt to satisfy the wild mob by offering them two virgin daughters - ?? Dont you have just some idea , how homosexuals would react ? (I had the opportunity about in 1954 to witness the reaction of the gay group at our local public swimmingpool, when the new teenie prostitute, quite inexperienced, tried to fetch new customers with getting amidst them and offering a look into her cleavage by extending the top of her one piece swimsuit : “Nice brown tan, wanna see more ?” - Panic !! anger, rage, helplessness in rejection, disgust - - )
ajshep, I am quite tired to hear the conservative scholars, even may they use their scholarship to support teachings , those far ahead of reality, maintained for nearly two millenials !
Some souls will read the Words of God and find strength to over come all sin and will be born again. They will have their hearts changed and their flesh brought into subjection to the powers of Heaven, putting the Sword to the throat of the enemy. Some souls will read the scriptures and will find strength to support their very deep and natural affections, affections that we are all born with, affections and desires that can not be refused in human power. It is a two edged sword.
David was not a perfect man. He did commit an egregious sin which he confessed and forsook. To say that David was a bisexual is utter nonsense and perversion of the scriptures.
Leviticus 18 and 20 states, “You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.” Chapter 18 verse 22 states, “If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.”
The book of Psalms clearly reveals to all how David felt about God’s law, statues, and precepts. In Psalm 119 he stated, “How I love they law.” Furthermore, the Bible states in 1 King 15:5, “For David had done what was right in the eyes of the LORD and had not failed to keep any of the LORD’s commands all the days of his life—except in the case of Uriah the Hittite.” To believe otherwise is self deception.
The guest speaker speculated that’s Jonathan abused his power over David and somehow “taught” him how to be an abuser and that’s how David learned to abuse his power over Bathsheba…and he is a professor at one of our major universities?
What really bothers me is the constant use of the term “homophobic”. This is such a mischaracterization of the vast majority of Sda’s and Christian’s who simply believe homosexuality violates biblical teachings. Using this term is a very cheap way of criticizing those that oppose you instead of debating the actual issue. He also suggested the only way one can know for sure that the Bible prohibits homosexuality is if God directly appears to you and tells you so because the Bible is so ambiguous…
Lastly, both the host and the professor wonder why people so strongly oppose the idea of David and Jonathan being bisexual while they dine have an issue with David being a murderer. This is such a blatant and international falsehood that it’s unbelievable to me that they would even use this argument. 1. No one thinks David sleeping with Bathsheba and killing Uriah was ok!!! We don’t ignore it, we all 100% agree it was wrong! However he confessed and repented, AND paid a dear price for his actions! The prophet said he would lose his son and the sword would never depart from his house and his sins would humiliate him publicly. 2. So it’s not that we’re ok with the murder but offended by the supposed homosexuality, it’s that we all agree the murder was egregiously wrong! And he repented, and he suffered for it! 3. And the difference is also that those who argue David was LGBT use the story to argue that it’s Ok. They don’t argue that he was gay but repented, was forgiven, and changed. They use it to say “see, David was LGBT so it’s ok for me too”. And no one uses the murder aspect in the same way!!! We don’t say, see David killed so it’s cool if I do to. They are completely separate arguments and for the host to say “wow, why are people so offended by the LGBT argument with David and they’re not offended he committed murder” is just a blatantly false equivalent that they should be embarrassed to use because it is so intellectually lazy and inaccurate.
The end.
I believe the argument was that the text does not offer a definitive statement concerning homosexuality period. And the texts used to argue against homosexuality are actually referencing much more dire social problems (like men power raping other men as an act of war).
But alas, I believe the “conservative” position is clearly articulated throughout the Adventist politic. Are you asserting that the traditional teachings (“taught for millennia”) are not understood by anyone who reads or hears this conversation?
And let me add to the method of exegesis “The Bible says” : Romans 1. and 1. Corinthians 6, 9. :
In the one case Pauls sight is on a certain social phenomenon in Rome and Baiae and their baths - see Martial or Juvenal. Todays we have the same ( ! ) for example in in the Caribbeans ( as the manager of a renowned travel and tourist agency described to me - what was shown him to be offered ! ) and the skiing resort centers in Austrian Alps (“Porno alpin” - the weekly periodical “Die Zeit” from Hamburg and my observations right on the places since the Sixties !). - The fun - fun - fun society (So also for us today a matter we should be aware of.)
And Philo alexandrinus describes and speaks against a special form of male teen prostitution - the “malakoi”, - “effeminates” (KJV) in the wealthy seaports of Asia minor and the Aegaian Sea -
The gay I know ( also in my churcht !) are neither nor !
You say ”fun”? The Bible says it is not fun at all. Here is the true interpretation of the Sodom episode:
Ezekiel 16:49-50: ”This was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty, and did ABOMINABLE THINGS [cf. Lev 18:22; Dt 22:5] before Me; therefore I removed them when I saw it.”
1 Corinthians 6:9 ”Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, MALE PROSTITUTES, SODOMITES, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers-- none of these will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor. 6:9-10 NRS)
Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, THE ABOMINABLE, the murderers, the fornicators, the sorcerers, the idolaters, and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death." Revelation 22:15 ”Outside are THE DOGS and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. (Rev. 22:15 NRS)
Don’t you see that the God of the Bible is SINOPHOBE, and pointedly HOMOPHOBE? The creatures must respect the Creator’s commandment. OR DIE. It is a hateful thing even to discuss such a topic, much more to tolerate them or practice! ”For it is shameful even to mention what such people do secretly”; (Eph. 5:12)
Sorry, I look into my Netsle - Alland NT Greek - ant there I do not find, what your tanslation offers ! (And even the Schmoller concordance shows no “Sodomites” nor anbything to be associasted with this term… And the malakoi, the teen male prostitutes - - OK, I have mentioned them ! And I do NOT at all approve the present fun - society with its slogans as :“Try everything, experience everything , have fun - fun - fun !” (in Hochsoelden or in Jamaika , at least in the framework of your vacation - no, not “Framework”, just NO boundaries at all! )
In Sodiom the maiority - or even the whole population - just wanted to have “fun” in a perverse way - with strangers ! (What did some US soldiers do with POWs in an Iraque prison? What did the Mediaeval justice do with PUBLIC- !! - tortures of the victims, favourably women being accused of witchcraft - or accused of just somewhat ?) - - See also the most of the times forgotten incident in Judges 19 : 20 - 28 !
And see Ecc l. 1 : 9.
I have no idea about David, but I am 100% convinced in my own mind what happened in Sodom and Gomorrah was in no way a sexual act, but a brutalization of strangers that entered their city.
When the townspeople came to Lot’s door, they were there to brutalize and probably kill the strangers (the two angels). This was common practice of the period. This was in no way a sexual act. It was a form of torture. It is still practiced today in prison when men and even women sodomize another, it is a form of control, and in no way a sexual act.
The key to this is in the Genesis story is when Lot tried to buy the crowd off by giving them his daughters. (a disgusting act in itself). They said to him “let us be, lest we do even worse to you”. Not at all a sexual act but an act of brutality. This was simply a way of keeping strangers out of their cities. When Ezekiel later talks about Sodom, it makes the case of how unhospitable these cities were. Nineveh also practiced this same kind of behavior.
No, but in the violence I see - just as in the examples I named , in tortures .- - in cruelties, in humilations - a perverted sexuality. But nothing specificallay “gay”.
The tortures of mediaeval justice often were an act of giving a pleaseful festival to the crowd !
I’m shocked that this so-called 7th day Adventist Magazine has such filth like allowing such unChristian questions to be put on this site, allowing someone to ask the question was King David bisexual? Why would such a question exist in the church of God? Homophobia? A made up label that attempts to make those of us who despise what God despises look bad in the eyes of a filthy world. These filthy questions are easily answered by anyone who has read and understands God’s word. I’m just shocked that this magazine entertains such nonsense while calling itself 7th Day Adventist…The great shaking is at hand it would seem.
you’ll likely be surprised when you find some of these “filthy people” in heaven. Provided that your judgmental character doesn’t keep you out.
At its heart you misunderstand and mischaracterize those who find themselves in this state. A blindman (amongst others other) in the time of Christ was thought to be the result of sin. Like minded individuals to yourself at the time were convinced that these ones should repent. Jesus spoke at length warning us and by example to resist judging others.
Fast forward to 2022 our understanding of the natural world has increased. We are able to discern the difference between biological/physiology conditions and now understand the root cause of such things that in the ancient past people could not. We are told that the natural world is subject to the laws of God and we do well to learn from it. We know the root causes of conditions of many things and in recent years including LGBTQ. No more than a blindman the LGBTQ cannot through force of will change their condition. Ignoring root cause of the conditions and condemning others who through not fault of their own which they find themselves in goes against the law of love and is the sin of pride.
The curse of sin has left its mark on us all resulting maladies and conditions which are outside the original plan and state God intended. You yourself are under the curse and by your logic must also be condemned and as a result you to will find yourself without a room in God’s house. You look at your brother or sister who is LGBTQ and as a result of self inflicted ignorance condemn them. Who has committed the greater sin? Those who recognize their true condition and humble themselves before the God and the brethren can be saved.
“A legal religion can never lead souls to Christ; for it is a loveless, Christless religion.” DA280
You cannot condemn those who Christ died for and come to Him and expect your prayers or your case to end well.
Dear Dr Svrcek,
Excuse me, I have read superficially, in a hurry, your comment. I am not a true English speaker. I thought that you mean that perverse sex is tolerable. I agree that the citizens of Sodom and Gibeah were not simply gay. They surely were not just straight / normal, since both Lot and the old father-in-law knew what they want. However, their idea was to ”make fun”, since they were not only sex-perverted, but especially mind-perverted.
As regards 1 Cor 6:9, I quoted from New Revised Standard Version, which is one of the best translations. The last term in that verse is in Greek ἀρσενοκοῖται = literally, ”those who have sex with other men”. I don‘t know if Sodomites is a good English equivalent, but the term is used in my native language with the same meaning. The last two Greek terms of this verse refer to both kinds of gay: the passive part (the ”loved” one), and the active part (the ”lover”). Two versions of the same loathsome thing.
No, the arsenokoitai - “malakoi” = “soft ones”, effeminates are the teeen boys - young male prostitutes - on the lanes of the wealthy ports of the Agaian Sea. - " -by getting used to it (sic !) they have trained/educated themselves to - - "
This clearly is describen by Philo alexandrinus Spec. leg III 36 - 41. (- for decades I was searchig such a definition / illustration of the term) .
Maybe in Summer I will find time to read the original text in some library of the local university - My quotation is just the translated form in Juergen Becker “Annaeherungen” / De Gruyter Berlin - New York. 1995.