Levterov Traces How Early Adventists Eventually Came to Accept Ellen White


(George Tichy) #906

And there is the “Patton convenience” as well… LOL


(Kevin Seidel) #907

I’m starting to think I need a pair of Joo Janta 200 sunglasses to read these forums.


(Kim Green) #908

Yes, Patton would be much more open to different types of therapy eschewed by others.


(Steve Mga) #909

Kim – you have been reading Job, LOL.


(George Tichy) #910

Ah…, now I get it! It’s obvious that there are many (a few?) here already wearing those glasses!
Yes, let’s blame the Joo Janta glasses… LOL


(George Tichy) #911

Hey guys, what a relief to have a few hours without kilometric comments being posted! My mouse’s scroll down wheel is back down to normal temperature again!!! :wink:


(Johnny Carson) #912

Never fear! This blissful state of affairs will not last!!! At any moment now…


(George Tichy) #913

Oh, don’t wreck it! I am (still) counting on a peaceful evening. So far so good. But then hell breaks loose in the morning again, right? LOL

I just checked who wrote post # 666. It usually gives us a clue… :wink: :innocent:
(Remember that post #1 is actually the article posted, so it needs to be adjusted…)… LOL


(George Tichy) #914

Breaking News on Fulcrum7:

They say that Gallimore is going to invite the La Sierra University Choir to his first program on that radio station. True, or mere gossip?.. :innocent:


(Kim Green) #915

I am glad that they feel that way…hopefully it lasts.


(Kim Green) #916

A role model for sure! :smiley:


(jeremy) #917

are you thinking kim needs you to defend her…i’m simply calling her out for disparaging a well-regarded poet from a stand-point of not knowing his value, or what he stood for…no-one’s being insulting…kim is conceding that she doesn’t really have a grasp of e.e. cummings…


#918

In his work, Cummings experimented radically with form, punctuation, spelling, and syntax, abandoning traditional techniques and structures to create a new, highly idiosyncratic means of poetic expression. Later in his career, he was often criticized for settling into his signature style and not pressing his work toward further evolution. Nevertheless, he attained great popularity, especially among young readers, for the simplicity of his language, his playful mode and his attention to subjects such as war and sex.

The poet and critic Randall Jarrell once noted that Cummings is “one of the most individual poets who ever lived—and, though it sometimes seems so, it is not just his vices and exaggerations, the defects of his qualities, that make a writer popular. But, primarily, Mr. Cummings’s poems are loved because they are full of sentimentally, of sex, of more or less improper jokes, of elementary lyric insistence.”

During his lifetime, Cummings received a number of honors, including an Academy of American Poets Fellowship, two Guggenheim Fellowships, the Charles Eliot Norton Professorship at Harvard, the Bollingen Prize in Poetry in 1958, and a Ford Foundation grant.

At the time of his death, September 3, 1962, he was the second most widely read poet in the United States, after Robert Frost. He is buried in Forest Hills Cemetery in Boston, Massachusetts.

https://www.poets.org/poetsorg/poet/e-e-cummingse. e. cummings

%20cummings


#919

Removal of warts would be one. To me, that’s crossing the line into mystical phenomena.

The thoughts I expressed about hypnotism I originally got from the SoP, but I know for myself that hypnosis is the science that Satan uses in his temptations, since it only makes sense.

Do not for a moment acknowledge Satan’s temptations as being in harmony with your own mind. (1MCP 32.2)

Satan suggests, “You’re angry,” and you say, “Yes, I’m angry.” People need to know that every thought that comes into their heads isn’t necessarily their thoughts.

Your Myth 2, there is a book that documents how all the phenomena of hypnosis can be achieved without the use of a trance.

I think what follows your Myth 1 isn’t true. That will become evident below.

The apostles of nearly all forms of spiritism claim to have power to heal. They attribute this power to electricity, magnetism, the so-called “sympathetic remedies,” or to latent forces within the mind of man. (PK 211.1)

I think one of my greatest concerns about hypnotism is the philosophy behind it, that through hypnosis we can program our subconscious mind, which will then direct our lives. Jesus said, “Without me ye can do nothing.” Paul in Rom. 7 and Gal. 5 said that the good we want to do we can’t do, and the bad we don’t want to do we do, unless we walk in the Spirit instead of the flesh. Thus, hypnosis’ teaching that man can in effect save himself sounds too much like:

If God is an essence pervading all nature, then He dwells in all men; and in order to attain holiness, man has only to develop the power that is within him. {8T 291.3}

And it therefore is satanic.

A popular occultic book equates the subconscious mind with the immortal soul. It says to immediately and unquestionably follow the promptings of the subconscious mind. That’s a recipe for demon possession. You mentioned before about people becoming mentally ill. Well, Sister White did warn that following impressions would lead to losing one’s reason, and I have personally seen that sort of thing.

That occultic book teaches one to have faith all right, faith in one’s subconscious mind, not God. Immediately and unquestionably follow its promptings. IOW, turn off your God-given reasoning powers and do whatever impressions you get say to do. Dangerous stuff. That IS turning over the control of one’s mind to another, a very sinister another at that.


#920

George, at this point I have to wonder what Adventist beliefs you do agree with.


#921

Can you point me to which posts gave such hard evidence? I don’t recall any such examples being given here.

But note that you used the word “theft” again, implying that she took something that didn’t belong to her, or you, or anyone else other than the author. It was in 1909 that making derivative works without obtaining permission first became illegal in the U.S. If what you are talking about is using a snippet here and there, then I don’t think you can accuse her of theft until 1909, if the snippets are enough to make it qualify as a derivative work.

Note that Walter Rea says in The White Lie that it was in 1909 that Ellen White decided to revise GC. How interesting that when it first became illegal to make derivative works, she decided to add references for the quotes that were already in quotation marks.

You mention “the fact that you choose not to believe.” That works both ways. There was a piece by Walter Rea that compared PP’s chapter titles with Edersheim, leading one to think EGW stole her chapter titles from Edersheim. Problem is that 3SG, 4aSG, and 1SP also have similar titles, and they were published before Edersheim. When I shared this evidence with Rea he responded, “I don’t think Edersheim plagiarized from Ellen White.”

Isn’t that amazing? When faced with the very same evidence against Edersheim that he had presented against Ellen White, Rea concluded that Edersheim didn’t plagiarize.

Think the problem was that Rea lacked personal honesty with his own inner self? I don’t think that would be a fair assessment. But given that he told me he would not correct a proven error in his book for the next printing, since the Bible has problems, and therefore people shouldn’t get bent out of shape if his book has problems too, I do think he had an integrity problem.

That proven error concerned a picture that Willie White paid to use in the 1886 edition of 4SP, which, it was claimed, had had the artist’s signature removed by Pacific Press, when the initials of the artist, CC, were retained, while only the engraver’s signature was removed, since he was no longer the engraver.

My apologies for such length.


#922

Sara MacEnterfer told the story of how one of the assistants got fired by Ellen White for changing her thought in the editing process. She was given a second chance, but did it again, and thus was fired.


#923

I have found an example where a critic claimed she plagiarized material in SC from another author, only to discover she in fact plagiarized from herself. In academic circles that’s a big no-no. You can’t plagiarize from yourself without giving credit. But in short, some of SC at least is from earlier writings.


(Kim Green) #924

"Removal of warts would be one. To me, that’s crossing the line into mystical phenomena."

I is hard to take this seriously, Bob…but the hypnosis school that I will be attending just finished a study for the National Institute of Health using hypnotherapy for the treatment of IBS and it was shown to be greatly superior to all other approaches, including conventional drugs. Mystical…naw, just something that you don’t understand.

"The thoughts I expressed about hypnotism I originally got from the SoP, but I know for myself that hypnosis is the science that Satan uses in his temptations, since it only makes sense."

I am happy that you are owning up to the fact that it comes from your belief in the SoP because EGW was completely ignorant about what hypnotism was and how it functions. She expressed her “opinion” based upon what was commonly known about it during a time where little to nothing was known about it.

And yet…the same women writes:

"Nine Tenths of Diseases Originate in Mind—Sickness of the mind prevails everywhere. Nine tenths of the diseases from which men suffer have their foundation here. Perhaps some living home trouble is, like a canker, eating to the very soul and weakening the life-forces. Remorse for sin sometimes undermines the constitution and unbalances the mind. There are erroneous doctrines also, as that of an eternally burning hell and the endless torment of the wicked that, by giving exaggerated and distorted views of the character of God, have produced the same result upon sensitive minds.—Testimonies for the Church 5:444 (1885)."

"Some Sick Because They Lack Willpower—In journeying I have met many who were really sufferers through their imaginations. They lacked willpower to rise above and combat disease of body and mind; and, therefore, they were held in suffering bondage… I frequently turn from the bedside of these self-made invalids, saying to myself, Dying by inches, dying of indolence, a disease which no one but themselves can cure.—The Health Reformer, January, 1871. (Medical Ministry 106, 107.)"

There are many more quotes in which EGW basically supports the premise of “mind control”, etc.

And then you follow up with:

"I think one of my greatest concerns about hypnotism is the philosophy behind it, that through hypnosis we can program our subconscious mind, which will then direct our lives. Jesus said, “Without me ye can do nothing.” Paul in Rom. 7 and Gal. 5 said that the good we want to do we can’t do, and the bad we don’t want to do we do, unless we walk in the Spirit instead of the flesh. Thus, hypnosis’ teaching that man can in effect save himself sounds too much like:

If God is an essence pervading all nature, then He dwells in all men; and in order to attain holiness, man has only to develop the power that is within him. {8T 291.3}

And it therefore is satanic."

Faulty logic…God created us to have both a conscious and unconscious mind. Learning to use what God has clearly given us and acknowledging this hardly makes us “greater than God” or “invites in Satan”. This fear comes from EGW as nearly all other Christian denominations have no issues with using something as natural and healthy as hypnosis. Since you can’t accept that Ellen never wrote anything or expressed anything incorrect, you must stick to your faulty premise about hypnosis which is a state that everyone goes into on a daily basis without most knowing that they do so. It is a natural function of the mind. You might do well to study somatic illnesses and get a better understanding of what our minds can do.


(Cfowler) #925

No. Kim is more than capable of doing that, if she feels the need to do so.

I’m simply pointing out how your post/posts can come across as insulting. That may not be your intent, but the comments come across that way at times.