Losing the Plot

Differences within any group are understandable. Any time people coalesce around a centralizing idea, differences of opinion on how to live as a community are bound to occur. Whether we are talking about a nation, town, school, or a family, people will have their own ideas about what is best. Christianity, obviously, is no exception. So it is not surprising that differences would exist within this group (or any strain of the group, like Adventism), about the relationship between church and state, or how to address racism or sexism, or how we should comport ourselves on the Sabbath. Neither is it surprising that there would be differences about how Christians should respond during this global pandemic. But it is confusing. The response of some of the most prominent elements of American Evangelical Christianity—a response that shuns the common sense measures that are proven to arrest the spread of the virus, a response that sows mistrust in the effectiveness of a vaccine—seems to be antithetical to the most basic tenets of the Christian faith, to the point where such a stance even seems internally inconsistent.

This is a companion discussion topic for the original entry at http://spectrummagazine.org/node/11425
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The author makes a nice point that SDA anti-vaxxers are internally inconsistent. But his point is limited and unduly charitable. Are we afraid of noting that Anti-Semitism undergirds in part their opposition to the vaccine? I certainly am. I still think David Read at Fulcrum7 is a friend of mine. And I have friends who remain supportive of and unembarrassed by the recent anti-vaccine event at the Village SDA Church in Berrien Springs. So I prefer to avert my eyes and say nothing. But the heavy hand of history compels me to speak out.

David believes and has written the following, generating shrieks of delight from his SDA readers:
(1) the world is under the control of a cabal of Jews, (which he refers to by way of well-known alt right euphemisms such as “globalists,” “global elites,” and “global masters”), including George Soros whom David specifically identifies; (2) Joe Biden is an infirm figurehead doing the bidding of the cabal; (3) members of Congress are of no help, because they have been blackmailed by the intelligence community, which along with the rest of the Deep State is in service to the cabal; (4) COVID-19 is no worse than the flu, so therefore, none of the laws and policies enacted to combat COVID-19 have a public health purpose but are intended to stretch the capability of the cabal to impose totalitarian rule; and (5) vaccine passports are intended to become social credit passports, which will be used to facilitate enforcement of the Mark of the Beast. Because David is a Replacement Theorist, he also believes that the principal goal of the cabal is to dilute America’s whiteness. He very much sympathizes with the Neo-Nazis who chanted in Charlottesville, “Jews will not replace us,” because he regards the dilution of America’s whiteness as an attack against Western Civilization and Christianity itself.

SDA opposition to the vaccine is inextricably linked to loony conspiracies about the world that have deep roots in Anti-Semitism. Granted, anti-Catholicism often serves as a substitute for Anti-Semitism, as carob substitutes for chocolate; SDA bigotry is highly diffuse and not confined exclusively toward the Jews. But every SDA opponent of the vaccine I have encountered is a disciple of Donald Trump. Every SDA opponent of the vaccine I have encountered has expressed to me deep distrust of the mainstream media, of President Biden, of the American government, and of experts. All of that distrust has as its foundation the greatest long-lasting loony conspiracy theory known to humanity, that the Jews are standing in the shadows and pulling the strings.


Confusing… but not surprising.

Jesus said to give to Caesar what was his and to God what was God’s.

We are not supposed to mix religion and politics. Unfortunately, this is exactly what Evangelicals have done. The movement has become focused on restoring and/or saving America via political actions. So now everything is political even faith. Evangelicals, being mostly conservative, will use their faith as a rallying flag and also as a weapon against a liberal government. So not wearing a mask has become an act of resistance against the “tyranny” of the government led by Joe Biden AND also a way to show their faith in God.

Evangelicals seem to have forgotten that Jesus said that His kingdom was not of this world.


Every “true” Adventist accepts distrust in all governments as a first principle given that their prophet predicts that these institutions will one day turn on and persecute “Sabbath Keepers”.

Or did some Spectrumistas miss that lesson in a recent Quarterly?!?!:rofl:

According to SAD-ist dogma, EGW is the preferred “expert” in such matters, right?:rofl::rofl:

IOW—and to use one of your favorite words, in fact—Adventism, itself, is based on a loony conspiracy theory!!!:rofl::rofl::rofl:


thanks for the awesome information.

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Render to Caesar that which…etc. That’s a serious answer to a serious question.

Or IS IT? Did Jesus really mean, "Give Caesar first dibs?

Every time an Adventist calls out others for believing conspiracy theories it causes me to shake my head in disbelief. The whole denomination is based on a huge conspiracy theory. Sunday laws anyone? :woman_facepalming:


You seems to forget that Sunday laws have already been voted in the past in many parts of America and are still on the books even if they are not applied most of the time.

Why do you assume that I’ve forgotten? I’m old enough to remember them very well from when I was growing up. Nobody was hunted down, jailed, or executed for attending church on Saturday, or not attending church on Sunday.


In her youth, EGW predicted that a NATIONAL Sunday was imminent.

Under no reading of history, can anyone claim that this has happened, to date.

Further, when it became clear that this would not happen in her lifetime, EGW started making noises about how she wasn’t that kind of prophet! :rofl:


Yep. EGW was the kind of prophet who refused to discuss objective evidence. :wink:


So why did you say that the SDA denomination is based on a huge conspiracy theory and then mentioned Sunday laws?

Since Sundays are already in the books in many states (Blue Laws By State 2021 (worldpopulationreview.com)) is it too much of a stretch to think that they would be enacted and even extended?

I am sure that one day before the attack on the Capitol on Jan 6th, 2021, nobody would have thought that it could happen. It did.

We just need a good crisis and what was unthinkable the day before become the order of the day the day afterward.

Wait and see.

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This essay is it example of the politization of this issue. It is not nearly so clear-cut as the author seems to believe.

  1. Joe Biden during the campaign for president stated that he did not trust the vaccines that Trump was making. He has clearly changed his mind, and now requires that these vaccines be administered. Perhaps some still believe his first statement.
  2. Minorities are probably the largest group that is not taking the shot. A major problem they have is trust for the government.
  3. The science is not so clear cut as Jason seems to indicate. Masking children is ridiculous, as they have little risk. Even masks themselves have not proven to be effective in preventing the spread of this disease. So there are basic disagreements that have nothing to do with whether you are conservative or a liberal or an evangelical.
    Finger-pointing like this is counterproductive and divisive. It will not help with this disease. Better to encourage real science rather than politics.

I don’t know about @cfowler but I see no reason to wait any longer.

Anyone who reads EGW without the precondition that EGW cannot have been wrong therefore those who don’t get her “lesser light” simply haven’t believed long and hard enough, or are just too stupid to understand her alleged “genius”, will see that the “prophetess” clearly thought William Miller was off by a few years, not by nearly two centuries. In other words, she probably thought the IJ would take a few months, or perhaps a couple of years but her “Worm Food” Sermon shows that she was convinced Jesus’ Curtain call would definitely happen IN HER LIFETIME.

So in this and many other areas, EGW can be objectively “judged by her fruits” and is shown to be lacking in any real prophetic talent, or certain people skills, for that matter.

Further, the fact that you don’t see how loony it is for anyone to defend her work and are willing to throw in straw man arguments about January 6th as if this somehow supports her and your case, does nothing to help bolster her previously refuted credibility or to establish your sanity.

It only goes to show just how cuckoo for her coco puffs you actually, as well as how ridiculous it is for me to comment as if a rational discussion with you on the topic is actually possible. :rofl::rofl::rofl:


I like the part where Fauci—a person who obtained his position by navigating the internal politics of the NIH—politicized the issue by insisting that it was wrong to politicize COVID.

This instead of saying what he really meant which was that he didn’t want anyone to question him or the “science” of the CDC, which had magically been settled, no matter how contradictory that “science” has been from the start and despite the fact that calling any science “settled” is as oxymoronic as insisting that some circles might really be squares.

I’m not a big fan of any politician but to my mind Trump’s biggest mistake was to foster the deification of a man who once claimed that HIV could be contracted by sharing toilet seats with an AIDS-infected person.


There are reasons for this distrust… And they are founded on evidence.

  1. In October last year the New York Post published some emails from a computer reported it to be from Hunter Biden. Facebook squashed the information and took the Post off of their forum. The information the Post supplied has proven true.

  2. The Pfizer company had a vaccine available in October 2020. They did not announce this until after the election, saying they did not want to influence it. But actually they did not want to influence it in favor of Trump.

  3. Even Biden doubted the vaccine last year. Do you think he’s stupid too?

  4. When the New York post Published its material, 50 present and former employees of the CIA wrote a letter that is the most clever bit of disinformation I have read. Here is the meat:

‘We want to emphasize that we do not know if the emails, provided to the New York Post by President Trump’s personal attorney Rudy Giuliani, are genuine or not and that we do not have evidence of Russian involvement,” the letter reads. But, it continues, “there are a number of factors that make us suspicious of Russian involvement.”,’

No one could accuse them of stating an untruth, because they deny having real evidence. Their letter is just a suspicion. But it is the most misleading thing I have ever read, and is extremely cleverly done.

So, although you may believe it foolishness, there are reasons for the distrust that is expressed by the people you deeply disagree with. I personally have gotten the vaccine and am happy about it. But I do understand why some people are skeptical. You might be a little more gracious with your judgment.


Here’s a little scientific counterpoint article from some of the “other” COVID experts:


Jason Hines writes,
“So little is required in order to prevent the spread of COVID in our communities”

Reading further into his writing, he does not specifically state the “little” requirements but does seem to refer to the wearing of masks and taking an injection (referred to as a vaccine) as the minor steps to practice. Therein lies the problem with this writing. Hines assumes masks and the injections work to stop the virus. This is utterly false.
Masks do not prevent inhaling or exhaling of the Covid virus because the virus is small enough to be classified as an aerosol and 10 to hundreds of them fit right through the pore of an N95 mask and all around it. Even Google has not censored this fact search. The Covid virus, because of its aerosol size and nature can linger in the air in an area for up to 59 days.
The injections currently available contain poisons such as graphene and RNA changing spike proteins that many informed people are not willing to risk. It has become clear that the injected subjects in this public testing are now the factories for mutation of the virus leading to more variants which are leading to continued sickness and development of more viruses, whereas the non-injected subjects of this worldwide study have developed tremendously stronger immunity against the first virus and other mutated viruses. If you wish to see sources, simply reply to me and I will send them, otherwise my comments can be considered similar as Fauci’s, who never gives facts, but only inferences and opinions. (Now, don’t you who like to twist, read into this sentence as me comparing myself to Fauci. I am simply making a point.)

So, referring to the truth of Jason Hines writing, it falls flat on any credibility due to the lack of facts to support that Christians are not following the example of Christ’s attitude toward others or that they show no importance or sanctity to the value of life. “Little” is not valid for an expectation to prevent the spread, however little was needed to prevent the destruction of lives had the big pharmaceuticals and politics not discouraged and, more recently, prevented the use of Ivermectin and Hydroxychloroquine in early treatments of patients. Hundreds of thousands of lives could have been spared had $$$ not been the main focus of a new opportunity within this crisis, often seen as one of future plagues as we near the end of this earthly life. I can provide documentation for any open-minded truth seekers, even Jason Hines, who seems to assume the direction of the government and its affiliates are trustworthy, if he should wish to respond.
Here, Hines is attempting to guilt on thinking Christians and uplift the unthinking who fall with closed eyes fully masked and inoculated with false claims.

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You don’t have questions about Joe’s mental capacity at this time?

A recent poll showed one in five Democrats regretted that they voted for Joe, and another one showed that if the election were held today and Trump was the other candidate, Trump would win by 10 points.

Maybe those Trump supporters, those deplorable people, are onto something.


I have not been to the link you list here until now and have read through the items entirely. This is an absolutely excellent site because of its simple and concise reading. It contains info that I have learned from many readings and researched materials and it hits the points VERY clearly with validation. Thanks for posting it. Jason Hines could be schooled here and re-write his article above with a new approach.

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