We don’t disregard the New Covenant; we just deny that it absolves us of any obligation to keep God’s law. Repeatedly those who believe as you do here, cannot give one solid argument against God’s law. You will admit the validity of every principle in there–except keeping the Sabbath. That’s the real issue.

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All the other commandments are mentioned in the NT written AFTER the Gospels which were a biographical sketch of Jesus. The NT Letters were written for the Christians, there were none when Jesus lived. Sabbath was excluded by Paul’s writings to Christians: Col 2:16; Gal.3:23,24; Gal. 2:14; 2 Cor 3:6,7; Rom. 14:4-6; Rom: 10:4; Heb. 8:7; The entire 9th chapter of Hebrews fully explains the difference between the Old and the New Covenants.

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There you go again Elaine, talking about the book of Hebrews.

Don’t you know that this book makes most Adventists uncomfortable? It’s just a thorn in their back. First it fully debunks the 1844 legend, and now you are saying that it explains the difference between the two covenants?

Don’t you think it’s way too much education, much more than one would need?
Are you sure Hebrews is actually an inspired book?
Since this book contradicts the “boox” don’t you think we should just ignore it once for all?


It’s no small wonder that EGW did not credit her sources. How could she after she claimed “…Satan has taken full possession of the [non-Adventist] Churches” and even their prayers are an “abomination” to God. (Ellen G. White, Spiritual Gifts, volume 1, page 190).
Would not people question why she would be using writings from people that were under the possession of Satan? She called the members of other denominations “apostate Protestants”, “nominal Christians” and that they were being breathed on by the spirit of Satan while supposing it was the Holy Spirit.

We often hear from some trying to defend her “borrowing” as being no different from writers included in the Biblical canon borrowing from each other, but that holds no sound argument because they were not accusing each other of being under the power of Satan as she accuses other denominations of.


Even today many are using her condemnation of other churches which are daily called “Apostate Protestantism” and Harlots of Babylon." What a terrible religious intolerance and bigotry she introduced which has never died in much of Adventism!
How can such people ever hope to introduce Adventism to those “Apostate Protestantism” with such a terrible attitude? Give them copies of the Great Controversy?


If we are so bigoted and intolerant, why has the church grown so much since its founding? I’m sure you would prefer that we pat them all on the back and affirm them in their unbiblical teachings. Which of their false doctrines would you like us to ignore, or maybe even embrace? The doctrine of the immortal soul? An eternally burning hell? Sunday sacredness? Once-saved-always-saved? What about the RCC? Shall we affirm them in their veneration of Mary and various “saints?” How about bowing to the pope or confessing our sins to a priest? And then there are the indulgences . . .

“All the other commandments are mentioned in the NT”

Jesus said to keep His commandments as He has kept His Father’s commandments.

If ye love me, keep my commandments. Jn. 14:15

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Jn. 14:21

What are Jesus’ commandments?

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. Jn. 14:23

He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me. Jn. 14:24

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. Matt. 24:35

For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. Heb. 7:12

So, Jesus’ words and sayings are His commandments, and furthermore He gave instruction through Paul in the transition from the Old Testament law into the New Testament Gospel of Grace.

Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) Gal. 1:1

Here Paul clearly defines the transition:

2Cor.3Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

The Apostleship and ministry of Paul was actually in accordance to and towards the fulfilling of this prophecy given by Jesus against the unrepentant Israel: “ Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” Matt 21:43. (BTW , the commission given Paul from Jesus at Damascus was really the end of the 70 week prophecy of Daniel and not at the stoning of Stephen.) And Paul was then given the commission to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles and to Jews also. “But the Lord said unto him (Ananias), Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel” Acts 9:15
He was called most powerfully to the Gentiles. “(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:) Gal. 2:8.

So, we that have turned to Christ are not under the letter of the law, but the Spirit. However, the written law of the Ten Commandments still stands as the ministry of condemnation and death for the unconverted, and will until the plan of redemption concludes.
The Sabbath we now keep is Him by the manifestation of His Spirit. As we keep Him, He keeps us; a fulfillment of His prayer “That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.” Jn. 17:21
Again, “He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.” Jn. 14:21


Unless you are living in the southern hemisphere where the church IS growing but the Pentecostal churches are growing faster. It has been receding in the home of origin for quite a few years. Why is the church only growing outside the NAD. western Europe, China, India, and the Middle East?

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Because the so-called “first world” is “rich and increased with goods and in need of nothing.” Those in other parts of the world recognize their need of a Saviour. The “civilized” world already has one: $$$$

Such an idea is exactly why the “Prosperity Gospel” churches are growing so rapidly: they promise wealth and good health, just put your donation in an envelope and mail it to…so I can purchase my own private jet, several mansions and Bentley’s. The poor are those who flock to this message of promises.


My guess is that nobody from other denomination has ever researched EGW’s writings in depth. Neither Catholics nor Protestants. Had they done that, and discovered how Adventists have been driven by White’s accusation against them, I am sure there would have been some understandable and justifiable reaction.

I mean, imagine a devout Baptist, or Presbyterian, or any other religion reading that their prayers are an abomination to God! And that they are actually possessed by Satan! What in the religious realm could ever be more offensive to someone???

Those with vested monetary interest who keep printing literature containing such abominable and infamous references to other Christians should stop such a barbaric attack. How come church members keep accepting this without protesting against it, and allow that kind of writings to represent them???



Elaine, what you are saying is very true.

People in less developed countries exhibit a hierarchical structure, where people know ‘their place’.

Also, these people view those above them with uncritical obedience. It’s not that they cannot question authority, it’s just that it never even occurs for them to do so.

In this paradigm, there is comfort in that (they believe), there are absolute answers, which they trust and rely on.

So a church will grow, using its authority, from blind uncritical subservience.

In the UK SDA church you can see this with 45% Afro-Carrabean and 45% African membership. You also have an influx of former communist nationalities, which are drawn to
this ‘safety net’. EGW plays easily in these cultures.

Of course, the local indigenous population, are nowhere to be seen.


You are conflating God with religion. Other parts of the world will do anything an authority figure says.


It seems that there is an ongoing race between leaders of several denominations regarding who is more powerful. More power may mean, to many, that the person (their leader) is closer to God than the other guys, therefore having more power by proxi-mity.

The church grew historically in the western world for the same reason it grows now in the developing world.

The West had the same hierarchical structure where authority figures were respected unquestioningly. These included religious authority.

Also, with regards to the SDA church, one other important point helped them grow. They were poachers. They just convinced people from other religious organisations that the SDA church was the right church.

The SDA church didn’t do any of the ‘heavy lifting’ . They didn’t convince non believers there was a God. That had already been done by the more established religions.

That is exactly what is happening in the developing countries.

Where you have an educated and sophisticated group, (indigenous developed world citizens) who are by nature, culture and education, critical thinkers, the Church has no answers.


And their “Saviour” is the one who offers the greatest promises of wealth, prosperity, and healing the sick.


When people go through tough times, poverty, unemployment, health difficulties, and all kinds of suffering, they are become emotionally vulnerable and more prone to resort to religion and firearms. It’s the obvious as we can see examples everywhere around the world.

I heard someone saying this before, … but since I am caucasian, I bet I can say it without being bombarded for it… :wink:


You obviously have a very low opinion of those who live in regions which are economically depressed.

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That’s completely false. Adventist missionaries entered many areas where no Christians had been before. And in many areas the established church was keeping the native population in ignorance and servitude, while the Adventists missionaries taught them to read and write and live healthfully. But I’m wasting my time, since you seem to have a very cynical attitude toward the Christian church. You claim the church has no answers, when the opposite is true; the world outside the church has no answers.

Yeah, like a fire at the printing house at Battle Creek? There were several denominations in the Battle Creek area, including Catholics, that surely would have become aware of the condemnations made against them sooner, or later. Maybe there was a urgent need to leave town and skedaddle off to Washington.