My only answer is that when someone is told from birth on that everyone else is wrong but your group, the toxicity is excused and tolerated because “out there” is worse. Which is so far from the truth, but indoctrination runs deep.
The movie “The Village” by M Night Shyamalan is pretty good at illustrating this concept.
Say those that moan and complain about those they demean as moaners and complainers, use a sanitized pejorative language referring to them as “gracers” and “evangelicals” as a means of what? Separating the sheep from the goats, perhaps? Maybe a means of driving all of the sinners from the denomination in order to purify it leaving only those who are perfect so that Christ can come?
Not only is it an apologist viewpoint, it is counterintuitive to Christ’s most basic teachings.
this is the belief system that motivated rehab to act in the way she did:
“And she said unto the men, I know that the Lord hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you. For we have heard how the Lord dried up the water of the Red sea for you, when ye came out of Egypt; and what ye did unto the two kings of the Amorites, that were on the other side Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom ye utterly destroyed. And as soon as we had heard these things, our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the Lord your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath.” Joshua 2:9-11.
do you think she had no belief system that influenced her actions…do you think she risked her life, and the life of her family, for the sake of strangers she had barely met because she had no faith…i don’t…
This is hardly a worked out system of 28 propositional beliefs, and a pinpointing of prophetic timelines. She had heard of YHWH’s power and intervention on behalf of his people and believed. It was simple. She was commended because she acted in faith, not because she held a more accurate belief in how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
Frank
You have made a good case and explained the dynamics well.
Jeremy…what was her belief system?
Oh it’s not me. It just the facts that are known to us in the 21st century.
Mat 11:16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
Mat 11:17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.
Mat 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
You are right, this must be an apologist viewpoint as well.
Regards,
Bulls eye, Jeremy…
apropos of what, zactly?
Reread my post, Jeremy. I did not come even close to saying she had no belief system. Incorporated into her belief system (apparently, for neither you nor I have enough info to be certain) were allowances for sexual behaviors which would appear to run counter to the God of Israel’s expressed wishes for his “chosen people.” She did have the milk of human kindness flowing through her veins
which melted the hearts of the spies and apparently God’s heart,too. That, I infer from the story, was enough. And back to my main point: It was who she was and what she did which found favor in the eyes of the spies, not an orthodoxy which would not tolerate her chosen profession.
Interesting. For 12 years my full time job what group treatment of domestic violence for perpetrators sent by the Courts. They had to attend 52 weeks, one 2-hour group/week. Graduated 1,858 of those!
Jeremy supplied this verse to you:
And as soon as we had heard these things, our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the Lord your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath.” Joshua 2:9-11.
The woman recognized that only God could do such things. She honored God and saved the two spies. That attitude is opposite to the pharisees who saw unmistakable evidence of who the Savior was and they honored him not! And to compound their obstinancy , they contined in their sins.
God is not a respector of persons.
1Pe_1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
If one’s love for God and His truth is not enough healing balm to heal the wounds of the offended, how deep is that love, when people leave the church? What about going to a different church? When you take charge of what you believe there is no one else to blame. The passion for truth is a power for the weak.
As regards me moaning, that is your characterization, which you think you can stow away onto the ship to help you build your tower of Pizza, Johnny. I do not need to moan. I defend what I chose to believe with God’s words. But that is not very popular here. I see the Adventist church overloaded with Gracer’s doctrines and I fight against it with reason, not moans or threats to leave the church. That deceptive characterization did not get you many miles.
But that did not stop you. I thought that we agreed that calling you Gracers is not a pejorative, but you changed your mind and again reverted to imputing offense to the clear term. You are proponents of Grace… Aren’t you? So you are Gracers without sanitization, Johnny. But having no other foothold you break the agreement and revert to imputing offence, for the second floor of the tower of Pizza. Do you not call others by similar terms like LGTers? And you guys use it as pejorative put-downs.
Next is the 3rd floor of the leaning tower of Pizza. Separating the goats from the sheep? What would you like me to do, say that Grace theology is innocuous and go on whistling Dixie? I love the Adventist truths. My heart aches when I hear the dejections of the Adventist faith on this forum. You, however, seem to enjoy that.
The 4th floor is the best. “Maybe a means of driving all of the sinners from the denomination in order to purify it leaving only those who are perfect so that Christ can come?” Wow, where did this come from, if not despair?
Seriously? Common, Johnny… Calm down Bro! Nobody is out to get you…
You do not bother me one whit. Feel free to stay, but you cannot expect me to endorse your views. That is not about to happen soon!
Peace, Brother… Peace…
Dennis
Elmer,
I have no clue what the IBMTE acronym implies but I sense that you are an amicable individual, so my best regards to you.
I was perusing over some of the comments here and it reminded me of tactics which were used by counter insurgents operatives. The one side would sent spies to inseminated not false information, but rather to incite a reaction or action which would distract people from the main issue.These so-called sympathisers could bond with the enemy, and then rat them out. I was taught this, and many other techniques, like the one which might be the most effective in many countries, the fear factor, by making an example. I would not recommend this technique, but it has been used, and to " good " effect. I am talking about the same principle, ok. Group A would eliminate two or three people, in the presence of a multitude of people, this would be a warning to anyone else, " who’s next". The multitude would understand, if we don’t comply, it might be " us"!
i don’t see this story in this way at all…if we put ourselves into the mindset of that time, where the military might of national gods meant so much, we can see that rahab wasn’t being kind, or feeling sorry for the spies…she was acting out of self-interest…first of all, she knew that the spies weren’t in jericho on a sight-seeing trip, but on a spy mission to determine the best way to overthrow the city…and having heard what israel had done to other city kingdoms, she understood full well that she, her family and her city - in other words, her world - were on borrowed time…she even conceded that her land had been given to the spies by their god, and was in full harmony with that…
in the trauma of the moment, having no real choice, she cast in her lot with the spies…and acting on her fledgeling faith that their god really was the true god, she bargained for her life, and the life of her family, by forcing them into an oath, Joshua 2:12-14…
and let’s not kid ourselves: the bargain between the spies and rahab was the cold calculation that because she had helped to spare their lives, they’d spare hers…that’s it…and even then, the spies put the further condition on the oath they had taken, namely that rahab had to hang a scarlet thread out of the window she had helped them escape through, and bring all her family into her house…and if that wasn’t enough, they added the threat that they’d be released from their oath if she in any way reneged, and spilled the beans about them…
i think you’re investing rahab with evangelical sentimentality - “milk of human kindness flowing through her veins which melted the hearts of the spies and apparently god’s heart, too” - that isn’t supported in the story…the spies, and god, didn’t spare her because she had melted their hearts…they spared her because she had had enough resourcefulness and forethought to make the spies take an oath, and oaths were everything in those days…even god used oaths in his dealings with the patriarchs…
As is your characterization of others here:
It’a a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black, Dennis. You are “hoist on your own petard” as the saying goes. Need I take apart this missive point by point or should I stop now? I think I’ll stop. There are times when a conversation is simply not worth continuing. Thankfully I know when that moment has come, which it has. Good luck to you in all of your missionary endeavors.
BTW, we’re all amicable here at Spectrum. I note you’re new so welcome and glad to have you in our conversation.
Is it just me, or has there been a precipitous increase in what appear at first blush to be breathless evangelicizers here?
Someone needs to update the dictionary to reflect the correct definituon of being a missionary and giving ones testimony. Witnessing does NOT mean repeatedly expounding your own opinion of why you are right and everyone else is wrong regarding esoteric religious conversations.
If i were inclined to conspiracist theories i would question whether the nearsighted oversight committees were already sending operatives into the lay member milieu in order to identify and root out those they deem are “out of compliance” with our standard narratives, but since I’m not, I wont suggest such a possibility.