Moment of Glory

Harrpa –
In the times that Paul wrote that in a letter to the 1st Corinthians, there was a
Jewish custom of having the Blessing [giving thanks] for the fruit of the vine –
the grape juice if fresh, wine is not fresh, and for grain in the form of bread.
Jesus changed this ancient action of thanks as Israel crossed over Jordan
from the nomadic activity of 40 years to permanent homes and land they
could cultivate with vines and grain. He changed the emblems from the long
past to the present – His body “broken for you”, His “blood shed for you, the
forgiveness of sins.” Normally this Blessing and the partaking of bread and
wine was done each evening meal.
So Paul was saying that ANYTIME you do the partaking of the bread and wine
at a meal, to remember the significance of these to the sacrifice and gift of
Christ. And do so in a reverent way, a reverent attitude.
The modern time table to do this in Christianity is MAN MADE.
My Jewish friends do the Blessing ceremony each Friday evening after the
evening service with bread and wine – fresh or old. When I do it with them,
I am doing it in my mind the “Jesus-Paul way”.
Episcopalians do the ceremony about each time they meet, which can be a
number of times a week.

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Ellen White: “We should spend a thoughtful hour each day…” On what? The closing scenes of Christ’s life. Yet for years Adventists ignored Easter (“too Catholic”). Even now, such as at the church I attend, the church makes a lot out of Easter but ignores everything leading up to it. Today Christians remembered Christ’s “triumphal entry” when he disappointed the Jews by not seeking political power. On Thursday Christians will remember the Last Supper. And on Friday the Crucifixion! The vast majority of Adventists totally ignore the “closing events” in spite of what even EGW said. How unfortunate. Did we throw the baby out with the bath water in order to not be Catholic?

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Roadkill, concerning that video, you might want to check out answersingenesis.org Ron Wyatt and Tentmaker.org Ron Wyatt. Pretty serious stuff.

Michael, I don’t understand your alleged inability to understand a sensitivity to the timing of a religious observance. Look at the contention between the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church over the timing of Easter. Would you say that one or the other were being overly sensitive about the timing of a religious ceremony? Why wasn’t Easter a month ago following the full moon on the day of the vernal equinox on March 20? Do you think the Roman Catholics, the Anglicans, the episcopalians, the Adventists, the Mormons, the Jehovah witnesses, the baptists, the Methodists, etc., etc. are being overly sensitive about their requirement that Easter can’t fall before March 22? What about the thousands of followers of Christ who were imprisoned or killed during the Middle Ages because they didn’t observe the Catholic unholy week and its Easter? Do you think the Roman Catholics were being overly sensitive about a certain segment of the population that didn’t tow the Catholic line, that didn’t observe the Catholic holy days that were required by the “faithful”? What about the first Christians who refused to observe the pagan Roman holidays and suffered for it? Were they being overly sensitive to the timing of religious ceremonies?

Christ said in John 7, “My time has not yet come, but your time is always ready.

Do you think that maybe there could be something important about the timing of His death? That maybe Constantine’s Easter formula was purposely designed to subvert the meaning behind the timing of His death?

What exactly is your belief system Michael? Are you a Roman Catholic?

Regarding differences between Roman [EASTERN] Catholics and Orthodox
[WESTERN] Catholics, they have these differences.

  1. Christmas dates. Roman: Dec 25. Orthodox: Jan 6.
  2. Priest marry. Roman NO! Orthodox. Yes, but one time only. If one’s wife
    dies, cannot remarry.
  3. Slight difference on Nicene Creed. Roman: Holy Spirit comes from the
    Father AND the Son. Orthodox: Holy Spirit comes only from the Father.
    Actually this reading is what split the Orthodox from the Western branch.
    “and the Son” was put in by the Pope at a later date WITHOUT a
    “General Conference” vote on the reading.
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Jones got all tangled up in the topic of Christ taking the fallen nature of Adam to the point where he held the belief that Christ had sinful flesh. He actually referred to it as “flesh full of sin”. Jones ultimately left the Adventist church. I’m not sure where he ended up. I don’t think he had God’s message for the church. Ellen White herself contradicted the gospel writer when entering into the fray on the topic of the nature of Christ. Ellen White may have had a few good things to say but she was not a prophet (ess).

‘Tentmaker’s’ founders are now dead. If they were alive they would have seen that Ryan Mauro was a guest on the Glenn Beck show recently to promote the video of his own visit to the Mt. Sinai that Ron Wyatt and his 2 sons visited in Saudi Arabia in 1984, spending 78 days in Saudi and Jordanian jails for the privilege. Tim Mahoney has just released his second ‘Patterns of Evidence’ film, and is now working on 2 more, that cover the Red Sea/Aqaba crossing site just to the northwest of Mt. Sinai, and Mt. Sinai, itself.

The Turkish Government has no problem believing that the remains of Noah’s Ark have been found. They have built a visitor center there.

So, I’m more inclined to listen to the people who actually risked their lives and got their hands dirty checking such things out, than I am to listen to ‘back seat drivers’, ‘arm chair quarterbacks’ and self-appointed hecklers from the side lines. Nothing attracts criticism like initiative, but that initiative by Ron Wyatt and his family is also slowly and steadily being backed up by second, third, 4th . . . corroborating witnesses.

The first white man to explore northwest Wyoming returned to ‘civilization’ describing what was first ridiculed as ‘Colter’s Hell’, but is now Yellowstone National Park.

And, by the way . . . Ron Wyatt was not the first to say that the Ark of the Covenant was to be found at Golgotha. General Charles Gordon was, nearly a century before Ron Wyatt did. He said so in a letter to a friend which can be read in a book published by a former caretaker’s wife of the Garden Tomb near Golgotha.

If Christ had ‘sinless’, ‘Divine’ flesh, then how was it that immortal Divinity died at Golgotha ? . . . or did Christ just ‘fake’ death ? . . . and what else, then ?

‘Sin’ is a function of the ‘mind’, first. Before Jones left the SDA church he clearly taught in front of the 1895 General Conference session (Sermon #17)-- from the Bible – that the ‘mind’ of Christ was not ‘fallen’, and that it was not merely human, but Divine. But the ‘brain’ is made of ‘flesh’, isn’t it ?

So clearly, ‘mind’ in this case refers to the collection of thoughts, memories, emotions and inclinations which the ‘brain’ matter stores for recall and use, and that ‘mind of Christ’ never entertained ‘sin’, never ‘erred’. Between the upper room and Gethsemane Christ said, “The prince of this world comes, and has nothing in Me.” John 14:30 If that ‘mind of Christ’ could be transcribed into a book, there would be no evil found in it, neither to provoke a wrong act, nor to experience, nor to remember one.

Jones speaking to the General Conference session in 1895 on the ‘mind’ of Christ v.s. the ‘flesh’ of Christ. (This was years before Jones left the SDA church.):

“Now as to Christ’s not having “like passions” with us: In the Scriptures all the way through He is like us and with us according to the flesh. He is the seed of David according to the flesh. He was made in the likeness of sinful flesh. Don’t go too far. He was made in the likeness of sinful flesh, not in the likeness of sinful mind. Do not drag His mind into it. His flesh was our flesh, but the mind was “the mind of Christ Jesus.” Therefore it is written: “Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus.” If He had taken our mind, how, then, could we ever have been exhorted to “let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus?” It would have been so already. But what kind of mind is ours? O, it is corrupted with sin also. Look at ourselves in the second chapter of Ephesians, beginning with the first verse and reading to the third, but the third verse is the one that has this particular point in it:”
{GCB/GCDB 1895, p. 327.1}

Apparently this is how it adds up, then:

human sinner = fallen mind + fallen flesh

Divine-human Christ = un-fallen mind + fallen flesh

If Jesus had had the un-fallen flesh (DNA) of Adam – before sin – then he would have been at least a 16 pound baby, and Mary would probably have died trying to give birth to such a ‘Giant Jesus’, if not sooner. The human body of Jesus had to fit in with those that existed at the time He was born.

Re. Jesus:
You bring up another question.
The Miracles Jesus did. Did Jesus the human cause them? Or was it
God the Father who did them THROUGH Jesus?
Did Jesus use ANY Divinity Power during His “Human” lifetime prior to
the Resurrection? Or was it God working through Him, like God works
through us?

This is my understanding.

Continuing the discussion from Moment of Glory:

SDARoaskill: If Christ had ‘sinless’, ‘Divine’ flesh, then how was it that immortal Divinity died at Golgotha ? . . . or did Christ just ‘fake’ death ? . . . and what else, then ?

He laid it down willingly. John 10:17,18 Therefore my Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

SDARoadkill: ‘Sin’ is a function of the ‘mind’, first. Before Jones left the SDA church he clearly taught in front of the 1895 General Conference session (Sermon #17)-- from the Bible – that the ‘mind’ of Christ was not ‘fallen’, and that it was not merely human, but Divine. But the ‘brain’ is made of ‘flesh’, isn’t it ?

So clearly, ‘mind’ in this case refers to the collection of thoughts, memories, emotions and inclinations which the ‘brain’ matter stores for recall and use, and that ‘mind of Christ’ never entertained ‘sin’, never ‘erred’. Between the upper room and Gethsemane Christ said, “The prince of this world comes, and has nothing in Me.” John 14:30 If that ‘mind of Christ’ could be transcribed into a book, there would be no evil found in it, neither to provoke a wrong act, nor to experience, nor to remember one.

Sin is a law in the flesh. Paul talks about the issue in Romans 7 when he says,

14 but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Christ was not sold under sin as we are. He did not have sin dwelling in Him as we do (contrary to what Jones says). He did not have the law of sin in His members (flesh) warring against the law of His mind. He did not have the wretched body of death that we do, therefore He is able to deliver us through the death of His own body.

He was called that holy thing.

Luke 1:34 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Genesis said that God would put enmity between Satan and the seed of the woman.

Genesis 3:15. And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel.”

When you and I came into the world we weren’t born with enmity against Satan. We need to receive that enmity from Christ.

We were born as an unclean beast in need of redemption (call it original sin if you like). Christ was born as the clean Lamb and as such, He had no need of redemption.

exodus 13:13. But every firstborn of a donkey you shall redeem with a lamb; and if you will not redeem it, then you shall break its neck. And all the firstborn of man among your sons you shall redeem.

Sin is transmitted by the man, not the woman; therefore Christ could be born without sin in his flesh. He could still be tempted but He did not have that war in His flesh that Paul described in Romans 7.

SDARoadkill: Jones speaking to the General Conference session in 1895 on the ‘mind’ of Christ v.s. the ‘flesh’ of Christ. (This was years before Jones left the SDA church.):

SDARoadkill: “Now as to Christ’s not having “like passions” with us: In the Scriptures all the way through He is like us and with us according to the flesh. He is the seed of David according to the flesh. He was made in the likeness of sinful flesh. Don’t go too far. He was made in the likeness of sinful flesh, not in the likeness of sinful mind. Do not drag His mind into it. His flesh was our flesh, but the mind was “the mind of Christ Jesus.” Therefore it is written: “Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus.” If He had taken our mind, how, then, could we ever have been exhorted to “let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus?” It would have been so already. But what kind of mind is ours? O, it is corrupted with sin also.

Made in the likeness of sinful flesh is not the same as saying He was made with sinful flesh. To be tempted in all points as we are doesn’t require sin in His flesh.

A.T. Jones: "If He had taken our mind, how, then, could we ever have been exhorted to “let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus?” It would have been so already. But what kind of mind is ours? O, it is corrupted with sin also.

Jones takes liberties with the word “mind” in the same way he transforms the phrase “likeness of sinful flesh” into “flesh full of sin”. Jones was a mangler of the English language and a distorter of biblical truth (IMO). Paul wasn’t saying anything different (let this mind be in you) than Christ did when He exhorted his disciples to be servants if they wanted to be great. It was a state of mind, not a doctrinal statement on the nature of Christ, that was being taught. It’s no wonder Jones fell off the deep end! The fact that EGW rebuked Jones for his views tells a story about Jones.

I could argue the same way Jones does in regards to the flesh of Christ and it would make a lot more sense (IMO). Referring to John 6:

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”
53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”

If Christ had the same sinful flesh as us, why does He say we must eat His flesh? What’s the point?

SDARoadkill: If Jesus had had the un-fallen flesh (DNA) of Adam – before sin – then he would have been at least a 16 pound baby, and Mary would probably have died trying to give birth to such a ‘Giant Jesus’, if not sooner. The human body of Jesus had to fit in with those that existed at the time He was born.

Not sure where you pulled this out of. Sounds like something EGW would say.

Obviously, I have offended you. I am as sorry as I can be.

You didn’t offend me. Sorry if I came across that way. This subject is one that I am usually reluctant to talk about. I’m a little bit sensitive about Jones because I was actually taken in by his thinking for a short time in the '80s.

At communion service in the Episcopal church I attend, just prior to
giving the elements at the rail, this prayerful statement is made –
Behold who you are,
Become what you receive.
Then we receive –
The Body of Christ the Bread of Heaven.
The Blood of Christ the cup of Salvation.

Jesus is said in the Gospel to have made this statement – no one comes
to the Father except by Me.
That can have 2 pictures.
About 2 weeks ago I was in a book study group at a nearby Methodist church.
That was the title of the chapter we were to discuss.
I suddenly had a flash of thought. Was Jesus REALLY saying that “those who
accept My words and actions and try to live them out in their lives are the ones
who have access to the Father.?”
Are there individual human beings all around the globe who are attempting to
listen to the Spirit – irreguardless of their religion’s NAME, and are living out the
principles that Jesus taught and lived, and are these NOT accepted by the Father?
Paul in Romans seems to indicate this. That they were accepted as being in the
Family of God.

If it is the life that Jesus demonstrated, and it is the principles of living that He
verbalized that are the MOST important, perhaps we as SDAs are presenting
the WRONG Gospel to the nations.
LOVE was His most important message He was carrying to the world in His
ministry – both in works and in spoken messages.

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I agree with you Steve. I don’t think the SDA church has the whole truth and nothing but the truth but they do have some good things to say. They have some extra baggage as many other denominations do. We are living in a time of great religious confusion IMO. It is my belief that we are in the time of the great tribulation referred to by Christ in the gospels. The earth is at a breaking point. Something very big is going to take place that will unify all those individuals around the globe who are seeking God. When that takes place, we will see the great crowd that no one can number (that last generation who come out of the great tribulation). It is the same view recorded in Daniel 7 where the saints receive the kingdom. The angel of Rev. 18 that lightens the earth with his glory and calls them out of Babylon will make it happen.

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