i agree that wo and homosexuality are not comparable…in terms of the fact that wo will likely pass in san antonio, people like doug batchelor have an important role to play to calm the crowds they have inflamed…
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It seems to me that a public letter from an SDA attorney who holds a significant position in Adventism is unseemly. What is more divisive - Pastor Doug’s position or an apparent letter of rebuke by a fellow SDA who holds a professional position?
I have listened to some camp meeting sermons by Nick and found some helpful statements. Will this open letter lead to a lessening of Nick’s influence?
In The Grip of Truth
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This is a very interesting dance to watch. On the one hand, Batchelor has decided to hitch the LGBT wagon to the WO star in hopes of bringing WO down by negative association. Miller, on the other hand, has already seen the handwriting on the wall and is trying to unhitch the LGBT wagon from the WO star, so that when the WO star inevitably rises the LGBT star will not have an opportunity to ascend with it. Indeed, in many respects, they are very separate issues. Yet Miller knows he needs to keep the complementarian views of the anti-WO camp alive in order to sustain a defense against the revisionist views of the progressive LGBT camp. That, in my opinion, is largely what Position 3 is about. It is not a compromise on the WO issue, it is a prelude to Miller’s defense against the acceptance of same-sex marriage within the church. That’s why Batchelor doesn’t get it. Miller is playing a much more sophisticated game than he is, seeking to rescue from the anti-WO position only what he needs to win the day on the LGBT issue.
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If there ever was a mission impossible it would be to attempt to defend the fundamental beliefs of any denomination including Adventism.As early as the first century Christ found all seven churches of Asia Minor wanting. The task of the Christian is to find a pastor and flock that is secure in the Gospel of Grace. Join with them with a heart set free of dogma. Then sharing come naturally out of such assurance and fellowship. what a joy to sing the Mighty Power of Jesus name, There is a wideness in God’s mercy, like the wideness of the sea.My hope is built on nothing less that Jesus’ Blood and Righteousness. I love to tell the story–
Paul, the Apostle of the heart set free, has given us the full scope of the Everlasting a Gospel. The sad, self evident fact is that Ellen White attempted to reconcile Judaizers with Pauline Gospel. So we have a denomination that is hopelessly divided between Law and Grace.At the moment, the Law dominates. Tom Z
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I have always been taught that we need to tread carefully when naming names or when doing something as Nicholas Miller did here. This is a personal letter and it should stay personal unless there is a decided disagreement between Nicholas and Doug, in which case a witness needs to be brought in.
We may have our own opinions about womens ordination and why we do or do not support it but can’t everyone see that this is a test? God is testing us to see how we will treat each other when we disagree. Please ask yourself, in the light of eternity did I or didn’t I put someone down and openly put them to shame because they didn’t agree with me?
It seems that for some reason we are allowing this issue to divide the church.
If someone disagreed with what Doug put on Facebook they should tell him personally, pray for them and leave it at that. Even if we err God doesn’t go around accusing us, He loves us admonishes us and rebukes us but vehemently protects us like a mother bear her cubs even if they had gone away from her after she warned them…
Let us be mother bears to our fellow believers and members who we see straying…not lions who prowl waiting to devour a brother who errs in his weakness.
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i think nick realizes that wo is going to pass in san antonio…the reason he wrote to doug, and not our seminary, is because doug has encouraged male headship proponents to believe that they can win if they’re only determined enough…nick is pointing out that doug has an equal responsibility to ease the great disappointment male headship proponents will likely experience…
i truly hope wo proponents will not be insensitively jubilant…
Adventism is approaching theological bankruptcy. The currency of the EGW printing press is no longer accepted by many. Adventism in its current form is unsustainable. You refer to Doug as an influential man. I see his influence diminishing every day. As an independent minister, he is selling his distorted version of the truth to satisfy his big money supporters who unwittingly are backing a losing horse.
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Since Women comprise the majority of the church membership it is important to allow this debate to go on by both sides.
It is Important to settle the issue that has been Bubbling since at least 1970 – over 40 years. What IS the Role of Women In The Church going to be allowed to be?
According to the letter from the North Pacific Union NEITHER side has been able to establish a Conclusive Resolution – even after 40+ years.
Are we going to conclude that Women have no business in proclaiming the Gospel? Are we going to conclude that the Priesthood of All Believers includes ALL BELIEVERS, that Women are part of the ALL and therefore share in the Commission of Christ to Go Ye and Preach, and Baptize?
Are SDAs going to Preach Original Sin, and say that Mother Eve has placed a curse on ALL Female Infants?
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“Conversion” is an ongoing process, and statistics cannot measure that. We do not know what is in anyone’s heart: we know only how s/he lives, says, and how whoever treats others. Our model is the one in Matthew 25 and 26. But even then, we know only what people do: when they walk to the alter, how often, what they toss in the offering plate, what they say, and what they profess to because we can count that; but we don’t know what is in their hearts or minds, and we’re not supposed to. More than one new church member has taken baptismal vows because of a need for the love of a family or a drive for acceptance that might have been available many other places had they come across them first; many new Adventists have joined the church for our readily available private education—the North American, 21st century “rice bowl Christian” we knew in the 19th and early 20th century abroad. Some newly converted church members eventually change through modified experiences and the love and acceptance of a church family, but not always. Of course, many true conversions have taken place as a result of megatons, television, religious spectacle, and community hymn-alongs; but no one knows or has measured the many, many conversions that come quietly, slowly, outside of alter calls. The notion that we can subject a fundamental change in being to metrics is silly, measuring a pastor’s success that way belongs in the marketplace, not the temple.
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I am a follower of the enlightenment, the movement that drove our forefathers to create the US and build in a respect for reason and a system for protecting diversity of thought and freedom of religion. It is in this marketplace of religion that the US has become the most religiously diverse in history. I believe that using the brain to reason and reflect on beliefs and views against new knowledge is a healthy exercise. Ellen White famously talks about new light. This light can come from any place, as long as it is light.
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Exactly!
Bachelor has his “independent ministry” but instead of staying independent he keeps injecting his influence into the Denomination system favoring the perpetuation of this infamous discrimination of women.
What kind of “independent” ministry is that? So he preaches in Adventist churches, attends meetings like TOSC, promotes/supports meetings like the ones in Fresno, writes books to influence pastors - all in his crusade to preserve open DISCRIMINATION of women, and it’s still called an “independent ministry?” What is this, a joke???
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This is certainly a fear factor pushing the discriminators in their crusade. They can’t allow a women representation that equates their majority. This is why those male discriminators fight so fiercely, coming up with all kinds of crazy ideas like the headshiP thing and other nonsensical arguments.
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This would be true if Doug’s Facebook post hadn’t been public. After all, applying this criteria to Doug’s post would prevent him from making such a post in the first place. Doug could have written to the pope and/or the vatican privately, and he could communicate directly and personally with those in the church with whom he disagrees. Instead, he chose to publicly denounce them. Therefore, a public response was appropriate. I’d like my Catholic friends to know that not everyone bashes Catholicism, the pope, and the vatican as Doug tends to do.
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Exactly. The rule has to be the same for all. Bachelor says it publicly, so the answer is in public as well. Asking different suggests an attempt to manipulate the discourse, or to silence those who oppose Bachelor’s persistent discrimination of women in church.
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That Catholic Church has been known for many centuries to go against what’s the bible had said on Certain Issue. (IE-Sabbath) Why must we(Adventist bible Christian) are suppose to follow Suit? How are we going to explain to God that we accepted an Openly Sinner who didn’t want to change into our midst? I fear God, more so than man. I fear that God will hold me accountable not just for my actions but for my Brother’s actions as well. 1 Corinthians 6:9 states that - Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? Be not deceived: Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind. By this passage it puts Fornicators, liars, Thieves, and Idolators in the same category. IF the church were to accept an Openly Gay Sin, then the church must accept openly Fornicators, Thieves, and Liars into their midst without any punishment or naysayers. This will only be fair. Everybody came into this work born with Struggles and we Must seek God to get over these struggles.
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I’ve been asking the same thing for a while now! And when you used the word “eerily”, I thought, thats the exact word I’ve been using too, while reading the blogs.
I like to read articles from the Real Clear Religion website, and especially the ones on the RCC and the way its dealing with these issues too. If anyone here has read the comment section there, will agree, it gets even more “eerily”, you would think you where reading comments from here.
“Eerily”…you couldn’t have used a more perfect word!
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It is also possible that God didn’t allow women to gospel ordination because of the absence of their civil/cultural rights then. Comparing nowadays they possess rights even in the global scale. What’s happening in our church is the evidence that God is still in control. I may or some be disappointed after 2015 GC session, but it is very comforting to know that God is still guiding His church. The church surpassed the Sanctuary issue, Trinity, 1888 message, and etc., and we believe God’s hand has led us through the years and until the Great Advent.
Let us not loose our grip on the principle of love. Lets love one another even in diversity of opinions.
John 13:35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
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Publicly smearing him? Give me a break. Wasn’t even close. Was respectful and loving in tone. Stating a different viewpoint appropriately.
You and your ‘vast amounts of data’. Not impressed, and hey why not publicly disclose your identity? Most of us here have. I’m a big Doug fan, but trying to prove people brought to Christ through your ‘data’ is absurd. The church isn’t a corporation going just by the numbers…Or is it?
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The bible and the bible alone. I won’t get into what Paul through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit said, when he prescribed who should be elders and bishops of the church in Timothy and Titus. You all now that already. But to summarize, God prescribes a MAN to hold these posts. That’s all I need, not what popular culture thinks, not what the world has morphed into, just the thus says the Lord. All we are required to do is trust and OBEY and lean not on our own understanding. This was the cause of the FALL in the first place, not abiding by what God explicitly said and vewing things through our human eyes. I’ll close with the story of Korah and Moses in Numbers 16. Korah, from the line of Levi, desired to be priest and questioned the status quo of Aaron’s position; however, this was not the prescription of God for him to be priest. God said that Aaron and his line should be priests and you can read how God destroyed Korah and his supporters for their rebellion. Its all PRIDE and self seeking my friends, the devil’s favorite tool… as Sister White said "It is the love of self that brings unrest. When we are born from above, the same mind will be in us that was in Jesus, the mind that led Him to humble Himself that we might be saved. Then we shall not be seeking the highest place. We shall desire to sit at the feet of Jesus, and learn of Him.”—Ellen G. White, The Desire of Ages, pp. 330, 331.
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Such a wonderful EGW quote. Thanks for including. Absolutely true, personal pride, getting us to live in the zone of self is the Devil’s strongest weapon.
We need Jesus’Grace so badly to pull us away from constant self‐centered rumination, towards Him.
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