North American Division President Dan Jackson Responds to GC "Unity In Mission" Statement

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#29

Actually, Steve, you only paint part of the picture. From what I’ve read from Allen regarding this, he usually writes in response to people who say such things like, “If we only did it like the Methodists!” And Allen would then point out that if that is indeed the case, then why are those churches losing member’s?

For e.g., harrpa wrote:

The Methodist Church just celebrated 60 years of ordained women pastors. We are the tail instead of the head,

To which Allen replied with:

By leaving out the context you distort what was really meant.

Edit:

@hopeful, yes I agree - and some try to claim it’s because we’re not accepting WO. That’s what Allen was dealing with. I agree with you both.

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#30

Elder Jackson,
Until all the little girls, their sisters, mothers, and our female called of God Pastors in the USA, China, Norway, Denmark, Conference Presidents, College Presidents, Professors know they are equal in God’s sight, and welcome at every level of this church, Jesus is not being allowed to be our CEO. He has been usurped.

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#31

Your words are a godsend to us. We need more leaders to open up their eyes and ears and listen and hear what we the people are saying. I do believe that if this vote and the decision of the GC was done more openly and discussed openly there would be less opposition to the to the problem. I see it not as a problem for the lay people, as such, but as a problem for those who seem to have put blinders on. I am hoping and praying that the leaders who question the ordaining of women pastors would do some soul searching of themselves. I also am praying that this does not affect the membership of our churches, even though there is talk that it will. Let us all pray that God’a will be done.

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#34

Yes I have reviewed this discourse on church organization as well as her comments on Acts 15. My view has not changed.

Your comments however are now orphaned since my earlier comment was deleted I presume because comparisons between James and the current GC leadership is considered off limits. Or that comparisons were considered inappropriate between GC2015 and the crisis averted between supporters of a Jewish Christianity and supporters of a mission to the gentiles that deprecate its Jewish origins simply though the willingness of the leadership to accept that there are differences in mission within a united community of faith.

Frankly I am very surprised my comments were considered pejorative but accept the editors decision.

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#36

I have thought hard about ‘accepting’ the GC vote, but my heart cannot accept the spirit of the vote. And then I remember that Jesus was a ‘minority opinion’. He never accepted the majority opinion of the Sadducees or Pharisees. Now I am certainly no Jesus. But I am convicted of the Holy Spirit of what turns out to be a minority opinion - at least for the present. I find like Christ I am often in the minority, but he never stopped voicing his message because of that minority status. I don’t believe He would like the minority to remain silent now either. Thank you Pastor Jackson for staying steadfast in your committment in pursuit of truth and enlightenment.

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#37

With all due respect Elder Jackson, you identify what it is to be Christian by your list of all the qualities in a child of God that a church needs, that it is people who are currently exhibiting these qualities who are so distressed by this action that is being described as “Unity.” It is not those who are in the front lines of caring and in the trenches of human misery of coming alongside our hurting brothers and sisters in the church and in the world who are at risk of being the lost sheep if we leave this church organisation. I suggest that it is the current, spiritually abusive administration of the SDA church that is THE LOST SHEEP. Hear our cry!

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#38

There’s no satisfaction in Adventist numbers. Actually, all church affiliation is dropping in the developed world and it’s not due to accepting WO—as some try to claim. The Southern Baptists, the largest Protestant body in the USA, prohibited WO and they’re also declining.

"The situation, sadly, isn't only a North American problem. This is a global concern, according to the research. At the most recent Annual Council of the world church (October 8-13) G.T Ng, secretary of the General Conference, reminded attendees that the global church is losing 49% of every 100 baptized, according to the latest data. When asked when they left, nearly two-thirds said that it was in their young adult years. [emphasis added] "Using round numbers, it looks like this:

"We baptize ten people: we lose five.

"Of those five we lose, three are Millennials or younger.

“Houston, Tokyo, Sydney, London and Silver Spring . . . .We have a problem!”

http://www.adventistreview.org/endangered-adventism

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#39

Here and there I read the line “Leaving the church.” No way!
“We cannot now step off the foundation that God has established. We cannot now enter into any new organization, for this would mean apostasy from the truth.” Manuscript 129, 1905; Selected Messages, 2:390.

#40

“Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set A MAN over the congregation”, Numbers 27: 16.

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. ISA 8:20

As it is written.

@harrpa 16 Seek ye out of the book of the Lord, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them. @harrpa it is sad that you need an interpreter to explain MAN isn’t that blindness or you are just simply trying to change the meaning of scriptures. Set a MAN over the CONGREGATION is very clear.

@elmer_cupino 10The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; A good understanding have all those who do His commandments; His praise endures forever.

The Man is the Head of the house and it is man who scripture clearly teaches is the head of the congregation. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 1 Tim 2:11-13.

You clearly did not read the story you raised. That has to do with the Law of Inheritance.

And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a man die, and have no son, then ye shall cause his inheritance to pass unto his daughter. 9 And if he have no daughter, then ye shall give his inheritance unto his brethren. 10 And if he have no brethren, then ye shall give his inheritance unto his father’s brethren

and they said, The Lord commanded my lord to give the land for an inheritance by lot to the children of Israel: and my lord was commanded by the Lord to give the inheritance of Zelophehad our brother unto his daughters. 3 And if they be married to any of the sons of the other tribes of the children of Israel, then shall their inheritance be taken from the inheritance of our fathers, and shall be put to the inheritance of the tribe whereunto they are received: so shall it be taken from the lot of our inheritance. 4 And when the jubile of the children of Israel shall be, then shall their inheritance be put unto the inheritance of the tribe whereunto they are received: so shall their inheritance be taken away from the inheritance of the tribe of our fathers. 5 And Moses commanded the children of Israel according to the word of the Lord, saying, The tribe of the sons of Joseph hath said well. 6 This is the thing which the Lord doth command concerning the daughters of Zelophehad, saying, Let them marry to whom they think best; only to the family of the tribe of their father shall they marry. 7 So shall not the inheritance of the children of Israel remove from tribe to tribe: for every one of the children of Israel shall keep himself to the inheritance of the tribe of his fathers. Numbers 36-2-7

#41

Thank you! Please continue to be strong! On the one hand, you are responding to these pressures in a positive fashion. On the other hand, you are not underestimating the seriousness of the situation. This is intensified by the apparent preference of some to use this issue to drive out of the denomination everyone who is less traditional than they are. They seem to prefer disunity to unity and they seem to be doing all they can to bring it about. This “crisis” is wholly contrived, the substantive and procedural issues of which could easily be resolved in a matter of minutes if there were a will to do it. Thank you, again, for your effective and encouraging leaderdhip in these very difficult circumstances. Very difficult, indeed!

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’Unity in Mission’ Will Fail and Here’s Why
#42

Perhaps you, @DV2000, would enjoy reading James White’s comments on the use of “MAN” in the scriptures:

“STINGY CRITICS.” “DON’T WOMEN DIE?” By James White. “We object to that narrow-souled theology which will not allow the old ladies to have dreams because the prophecy says, ‘your old men shall dream dreams;’ and that will not allow young women to have visions because the prophecy says ‘your young men shall see visions.’ These stingy critics seem to forget that ‘man’ and ‘men’ in the Scriptures, generally mean both men and women. The Book says that it is ‘appointed unto men once to die.’ Don’t women die?”
(James White, Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, February 25, 1862; Spiritual Gifts, vol. 3, p. 24).

And some other readings about women in ministry for you, @DV2000. Enjoy:

Pastoral Ministry, p. 76. “There are women who should labor in the gospel ministry.”

Manuscript Releases, 12:167. “Study the Scriptures for further light on this point. Women were among Christ’s devoted followers in the days of His ministry, and Paul makes mention of certain women who were helpers together with him in the gospel (see Philippians 4:2, 3).”—Letter 142, 1909, pp. 4-6. (To A. G. Daniells, October 27, 1909).

“For consecrated men and women God has made full provision. Actual service will determine the character of the work of those ORDAINED OF GOD to bring salvation to human hearts and minds.” (RH March 11, 1909, par. 12).

Testimonies for the Church, 1:710.
“When God specially calls your wife to the work of teaching the truth, then should you lean to her counsel and advice, and confide in her instructions. God may give you both, as possessing an equal interest in and devotion to the work, equal qualifications to act a prominent part in the most solemn work of saving souls.”

“Women…should be set apart to this work by prayer and laying on of hands.” --EGW, RH, Jul 9, 1895, p434

Testimonies for the Church Volume 6, p. 322.
“It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God.”

“It is not always men who are best adapted to the successful management of a church.” Ellen G. White to Brother Johnson, Letter 33, 1879; Manuscript Releases, 19:55-56.

“[M]ake no mistake in neglecting to correct the error of giving ministers less than they should receive. . . . The tithe should go to those who labor in word and doctrine, be they men or women.” (Ellen White, Manuscript Releases, 1:263).

“When a great and decisive work is to be done, God chooses men and women to do this work, and it will feel the loss if the talents of both are not combined.” (Letter 77, 1898; Evangelism, 469).

There is a “special need of men and women who possess Christlike qualifications for service” and “executive ability” and who “practice the words ‘All ye are brethren [and sisters].’” (Ellen White, Manuscript Releases, 2:88).

RH Jan 31, 1871 p56 “on motion it was voted that credentials be renewed for the following ministers: James White, EG White, JH Waggoner…”

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#44

I find it amusing that the story preceding this text, Numbers 27,1-11 talks about a set of daughters whose father had died. Because there was no son in the family, the promised earthly possessions would have passed over the daughters and into the hands of the father’s brothers. However, the daughters petitioned their plight to Moses who brought the case before the Lord. The verdict? “And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: “The daughters of Zelophehad speak what is right; you shall surely give them a possession of inheritance among their father’s brothers, and cause the inheritance of their father to pass to them.”

The remarkable thing about this law is that it was made in anticipation – in faith – of coming into the inheritance of land in the Canaan. This was a real issue – at this time – for the daughters of Zelophehad shows they were real women of faith, concerned about dividing up what they did not yet have in their hands, but knew they would possess by faith.

Why did you miss the essence of the chapter’s narrative? Were you so blinded by your desire to exclude women from the Lord’s inheritance simply because of their sex?

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#45

i’m not so sure anymore that a split in our church is the worse thing in the world…after-all, abraham and lot split over pasture for their flocks, and the ten northern tribes of israel split from judah and benjamin when king rehoboam clearly wasn’t listening to them anymore…was annual council listening to any of our union presidents, all of whom voted no in the compliance vote, or did annual council steamroll them because they could…is there any virtue in staying with someone who cannot be influenced to care about you, or what concerns you…
.
i think if NAD did a brexit from the GC, it is likely that TED, SPG and a few other divisions would join us…we would likely still have an international feel…we could then be the branch of adventism that followed Gal 3:28 and put an end to gender discrimination in the church, while those outside our fold, and without our money, can stare vacantly into the sunset through their window and wonder where it all went wrong…this split cultural ideology was a feature in the apostolic church: there was the gospel of the circumcision, spearheaded by peter, and the gospel of the uncircumcision, spearheaded by paul, Gal 2:7…newcomers into the faith apparently had a choice of which cultural ideology to align with…

if our church did split over WO, it would add new meaning to egw’s prophecy that two parties will develop in our church, 2SM:113…a split over policy, for which there simply wasn’t enough love or concern for others to resolve, would also force a rethinking of the value of allegiance to church authority…i’m thinking now of another egw prophecy that says that those who go on to be saved will see every earthly support cut off, DA:121…is the possible unraveling of our church structure preparing us to stand on our own…probably the destruction of the temple in jerusalem by the romans forced apostolic christians to stand on their own…

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#50

This reminds me of the following incident. John and James complained that someone who was not a disciple was performing miracles in Jesus’ name. Notice how Jesus responded to this departure from accepted policy:

“Teacher,” said John, "we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us. But Jesus said, "Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me.” [Mark 9:38-39]

Some unions have slightly departed from the traditional manner in carrying the Gospel forward, and the church has reacted by producing a plethora of documents and wasted millions of dollars in order to forbid what is nowhere forbidden in Scripture. We would be wise, I believe, in stopping this nonsense.

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#51

GOD BLESS MEN LIKE PASTOR JACKSON. I am convinced that the GC leadership is responding just like untrained parents who perceive that their children are defiant. So they respond harshly, creating new rules, etc. But it never really solves the problem. It actually pushes the child away over time. The fact is the church did not have to vote on women ordination from day one. Our teachings and beliefs makes this a natural practice. But when traditionalism takes control, this is what we have.

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#52

One thing people fail to realize is that not everyone in NAD sides with the Jackson camp. There is likely to be splintering within the division itself. He will be ousted before that happens.

Referring to NAD as “us” is not accurate.

#56

My response is general in that it covers the whole of Elder Jackson’s position as well as those many responses that agree with and applaud his position. Needless to say, I am sadden and was taken by surprise somewhat when told by a friend the extent of the reaction to the church’s decision and position.

What we see here is the shaking at its finest worse as described by Ellen White (see Early Writings - the Shaking). Three times over the course of years beginning in 1990, the church has spoken and voted NO on Woman’s Ordination, and three times the North American Division has ordained woman to the ministry. What does the Woman’s husband - our Father feel? The church is and has been split over this matter and now the NAD reacts despite the decision of the majority of the delegates from the world field. Private individual “opinion” is made superior to the decision of the whole church. Heaven weeps and there are many in North America that feel that the NAD has gone too far. I feel that this is the beginning of an even greater divide.

It is not about equality, it is about leadership and woman’s role of leadership. Let’s be clear.
Because of the general practicality of women, they preach better sermons, but we are talking about being a pastor. The point is both sides fully and honestly believe that they are correct and even have scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy to support their views, and yet this is what is the result. Unity? Both can not be right The vote of No was also about keeping the church unified as one voice before the world. Someone has to give up their opinion and here is the famous “Rub”. Should the larger body give in to what the smaller body wants and believes?

Volume 5 of the Testimonies to the church has a very sobering and sad personal response from the pen of Mrs. White on page 77. In fact the chapter on the “Seal of God” page 207 chapter 23 predicts a division among us.

Both sides of the issue on WO fully love The Lord and seek to do what is right for the church. Our prayer to Him is “Lord, your church is in trouble, help us with this please”.

Your brother Andre’ Wilson

#69

How sad. Please remember the words of Ellen White that the church will appear to be on the verge of falling, but it will not. Are the Methodists preaching the Three Angel Messages? I know for a fact that they are not. God is calling us to get out of Babylon not to run to it when things don’t go our way in His true church.

Remember, God will be the One to purify His church. We just need to be patient.

I will be praying for you and others who are frustrated over the GC’s decision on WO.

This issue calls for patience. Comfort yourself with the text, "Here is the patience of the saints. Here are they that keep the commandments and have the faith of Jesus.

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#73

Please, be so kind and also include in your prayers all those who discriminate against women in Church. They are in urgent need for help.

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#74

I am part of the so called millenials that everyone is so worried about. I don’t believe the fighting happening now has anything to do with women’s rights. I have grown up in the church and never felt inferior because of my female status and in fact compared to many of my friends from other denominations have realized how privileged I have been to be raised with the firm assurance of God’s love and how that has empowered every aspect of my life. The fighting happening now has to do with efforts by some to bring spiritualistic practices into the church in an effort to join unbiblical interfaith alliances. Here is strong evidence. This link is an article by the NAD proudly announcing a women’s empowerment forum that is cohosted by the Universal Peace Federation USA and occurred in the NAD building. Notice the photo of the banner and Dan Jackson’s wife later on. http://www.nadadventist.org/news/maryland-leaders-professionals-uplift-and-empower-community-members-during-international
Now then Google Universal Peace Federation and go to the who we are link and then scroll down to the link of the founders. If you want a short cut here it is. http://www.upf.org/founders/rev-dr-sun-myung-moon
It will take less then 5 minutes to read to the part where the founder of that organization believed (he is deceased but his son carries on) that Jesus did not complete the mission to establish a heavenly kingdom on earth so it is given to him instead. He then goes on the claim that he has received a deeper understanding of god through communion with the spirits of Abraham, moses,Jesus, Mohammed, and Buddha…oh also he had close ties with the North Korean regime and his son attended the funeral of dictator the passed away. So the NAD co hosted and event with the org and has its banner flying…funny that people should call elder Wilson a dictator but then co host with such an organization. The women’s ordination is a red herring.