North American Division Responds to False Claim


(Steve Mga) #42

One can go to Google, Microsoft Edge, Firefox and type in
“Fulcrum7” and it will come up.
On the edge of the topics listed, use your curser to click on
the article you would like to read.
EASY EASY EASY


(Sam Matthews) #43

For all the offensive things that Fulcrum 7 has endorsed, the NAD takes issue with the statement that it would be ordaining 1,000 women instead of merely “hiring” them? So the NAD will not be engaging in ordaining women and will be “complying” with the GC?

As Dan Jackson so nobly stated and apparently subsequently backed away from, “Hooey!!!”

What’s wrong with these people? I’m actually thankful for F7’s apparent exposure of President Jackson’s own “Hooey!”

In choosing this response , the NAD is far more annoying in its response than the issue (among a garden of legit issues with Fulcrum 7).

Great job, Dan Jackson. Now we know who is really full of Hooey. The NAD is apparently not going to be moving toward the ordination of he 1,000 women it wants to attract to the ministry. Yes, I know ordination is a “Union” thing not an NAD thing, but what was all this dog and pony show at the annual council if the NAD isn’t going to back up the Unions that allow ordination in their conferences?

Forget Fulcrum7, the NAD’s odd response to what it intends to do about ordination is the real story here. Also it seems the NAD is more concerned about keeping conservative (anti-WO) tithes than pushing the WO issue which it apparently intends to pursue with all the conviction of a wet noodle.


(Steve Mga) #44

Sam –
The NAD [President Jackson] did NOT say anything about NOT being for men
AND women being of Equal Status when it comes to the END of their Internship,
ALL that is stated is that the Fulcrum7 article had some misinformation about
what was released by the NAD.
ALL the NAD stated was the “Hiring” of women pastors.
The Fulcrum7 writer went off on a tanget and wrote MORE than was stated in
the press release.
Fulcrum7 for quite some time now has been AGAINST women as pastors,
AGAINST women as Elders. So THIS just gave them ONE MORE opportunity
to rail against women in the church who are given the opportunity to Serve
beyond setting up the communion table once every 3 months, and to teach in
little kids sabbath school rooms, set up for pot luck and wash the dishes after.
In ALL the SDA churches I have visited, or seen broadcast on the internet,
women ARE NOT even allowed to assist with taking up the offering.


(Sam Matthews) #45

Niteguy,

I can’t speak to what you’ve seen on the Internet. I have been to many Adventist churches where women are actively involved. But the issue is ordination and the NAD has conferences that have ordained women.

The NAD president made it clear that he supported WO and they rejected the compliance document by the GC. In making this statement the NAD is saying that it will comply with the GC and will not be encouraging the ordination of the 1,000 women it intends to support the hiring of.

The NAD is playing a word game between hiring and ordaining and is sending a clear signal to all women considering a career in the the ministry that its commitment to their ordination is merely conceptual and that despite all the pronouncements of “Hope” on the GC policy, the NAD has no backbone to do anything more for women’s ordination than express itself.

It is also sending a clear signal that it values tithe dollars from anti-WO conservatives more than it does ordination of women.

That was my point. Dan Jackson seems to play to whichever audience he is in front of and is equivocal to the point of uselessness.

Parsing “hire” from “ordain” and claiming F7 is fake news because it failed to follow that distinction makes this very clear. And frankly, I wish that F7’s story had been accurate because when the NAD affirmed it’s commitment to hiring 1,000 women, after Dan Jackson’s “Hooey” speech I didn’t fathom that this meant hire but not ordain and this was before I saw anything from F7 that this is what Jackson meant, and I can’t help but think the NAD is trying to speak out of both sides of its mouth on this.

Now Dan Jackson’s message to young women is clear - “If you think that we will do anything but pay lip service to your ordination as a pastor and give you anything above second-class status as a pastor, ‘Hooey!’. We make no such commitment.”

This is much bigger than some lay-operated website most people have never heard of. This is about the heart and soul of the NAD - they see this as a threat to the small cadre of anti-WO donors who they think F7 will discourage from paying tithe to the NAD. It is often said that the only non-negotiable in Adventist Church life is the almighty dollar and when dollars are at risk (even conceptually) the organization will easily cave. That is what is happening here.

I’m very disillusioned by the Jackson leadership on this issue. He has no courage it intention to “resist.” He and Ted Wilson are just playing a “Good cop, bad cop” routine and we’re suckers for thinking differently.


(Steve Mga) #46

What I was alluding to as far as Deacons.
Persons who are called as Deacons Should be allowed to have the SAME responsibilities
and be treated Equally.
In the English Language we have TWO WORDS for Deacons.
MEN – are titled Deacons [a masculine word]
WOMEN – who are Deacons are titled Deacon - ness [the feminine form of Deacon]
Since they are BOTH Deacons, seems like the Job Descriptions should be the SAME.


(efcee) #47

If members withhold tithe, the conferences may feel pressured to prefer hiring commissioned female pastors rather than ordained male pastors due to the reduced salary and benefits cost of commissioned pastoral employees.


(Alice C ) #48

In my church, the division between types of deacons is between hosts and hostesses (sanctuary doors; includes communion hosts/hostesses) and those who serve facilities and operations (filling tithe envelope slots, baptisms, offerings, de-littering the sanctuary after the service, etc.). Thus, males and females can serve in either role.

And all get ordained, unless they have been ordained before somewhere.


#49

Which conferences are you referring to?


(Carlo Schroeder) #50

That is incorrect, because if you say the NAD is in noncompliance, then you are saying the General Conference is in noncompliance. As it was said, the North America of the GC is an extension of the GC, they are the same. Like it or not.
However, the union and conference is not an extension of the GC, because if they were, the GC would be paying the salaries of all those people. They would be like franchises, of the GC. So as you know, each component has an constitution, hence, the constitution dictates how the organisation is run, the constitution is amended by vote of the people, called called members/ constituency of said component. God revealed that EG White, and if we had followed God’s instructions we would be much better off than what we are today.
Secondly, there are many other Unions and Conferences which are in noncompliance, yet I never hear of them. I give you an example, there is a country, very near to you, which has a different organizational structure. In this country, there is a structure above the union, equal to the division, but not related to the GC. No one elects these officials, yet they say they represent them. That is in noncompliance, yet nobody is complaining, because I would think fulcrum 7 would love something as Juicy as this, the abuse of Conference or Union, but nothing. Maybe because these folks think the same, and believe the same thing about women in general.


(Tim Teichman) #51

All of the divisions are in non-compliance. None of them follow all the rules.


(Bill Garber) #52

As you think back, Phil, the French revolution eventually, having exhausted the supply of kingly functionary fodder for the guillotine, started feeding the machine with their own leadership. Any leader would do.

Realizing Seventh-day Adventists after more than a century and a half of blatantly trying to get the attention of the Pope, the mission behind Fulcrum 7 site has now turned it’s hub bub against the NAD in hopes, now fulfilled, of feeling the deep confirmation of public rejection by, if not the Pope, at lest the NAD leadership.

It is unlikely on such a high that those behind this outfit will voluntarily seek to rejoin the full community of Seventh-day Adventists. But do they have any choice?

We do well to remember that the Fulcrum 7 crew is no less Seventh-day Adventist than those of us smiling knowingly at this kerfuffle. We are each seeking to make meaning of our experience of God in the context of fellow Seventh-day Adventists. And there is no escaping such contention no matter how much distance any of us would like to impose between ourselves.

We are simply inexorably joined through our Seventh-day Adventist experience. Neither voted policy nor voted belief-lines in the sand are up to drawing and quartering the denomination.

One way or another we are all in this together it seems.


(Andrew) #53

Why bother addressing opinion pieces on Fulcrum7, particularly in such a spin manner of their own, any more than the GC should be responding to Spectrum articles.

My views are more aligned with Spectrum but it’s irrational to hold one up as the baddie and the other the goodie.

Both sites have a political/cultural bias and this comes through obviously, although in my biased opinion, Spectrum articles tend to be more intellectually rigorous.


(George Tichy) #54

Unfortunately, Phil, nothing on your list is ever going to happen at Fulcrum7.

Fanatics, extremists, unreasonable people who do not value freedom of speech and conscience will NEVER do anything like you suggest.

Remember Huss & Jerome? This is why this Czech here does not participate actively on that site. :wink:


(Tom Loop) #55

Far be it for me to ever defend Fulcrum7. I was banned from that site 2 year ago. But wouldn’t it stand to reason if the NAD plans to hire 1000 women as pastors, and the NAD supports the ordination of women, that in the end these 1000 women would then qualify for ordination at some point?


(Tom Loop) #56

So you are for quotas, huh George. I couldn’t think of a worse idea.


(Jeffrey Kent) #57

The folks at Fulcrum7 absolutely hate most of us. They wake up angry every day and take great delight in sharing their self-righteous vitriol with like-minded haters. Every article and every comment has the same negative, bitter tone. That’s what they LIVE for. It’s their CHRISTIAN EXPERIENCE in a (very thick) nutshell.

We should ignore them. They have no desire to engage in constructive dialogue.


(George Tichy) #58

Do you have a better idea Tom? I am open to it.
If my idea is the worst, any other idea should be better than mine, or at least as bad as mine.
As the honorable POTUS say, “We will see, we will see.” … lol


(George Tichy) #59

Well Jeff, now you said it all, leaving nothing else for us to say.
This is it, exactly as you described it.

I used to go there for a few days every January just to ask a few questions (usually Y/N…) to stir up their brains… But, how to stir up something when there is nothing there (brains)?.. And the response was always nothing but hate, anger, and name calling. I think that this is what empty brains do…

This year I am skipping my “visit” there. I am sure they won’t miss me at all… :wink: :innocent:


(Tom Loop) #60

How about just hiring those qualified regardless of gender.


(Carlo Schroeder) #61

Could Spectrum please do an article on the structure of the organisation, which clearly lights how each component functions, but stating that the Division is not independent of the GC, and that no Division can be in noncompliance, because it is the GC. I hope something can be done, in four languages, so that it can be dispersed in countries in the southern belt.