North American Division Responds to False Claim


(JK) #62

There is a huge difference in hiring and ordaining otherwise there would not have been all the hoopla about ordination. And it is right for the NAD and the UCC to call out groups who lie.


(JK) #63

It is my understanding that while the NAD supports ordination, they do not plan to go against the standing policies.


(jeremy) #64

to me, this statement by NAD against Fulcrum7 sounds like they’re afraid to lose tithe from conservatives…that is, i don’t think any kind of statement would have been issued without the perception of this threat…

in retrospect, NAD would have been smarter to issue a statement without naming names, as others have already said…by naming Fulcrum7, they’ve only fed a growing conservative monster…they’ve now pitted themselves against a primary conservative site, which makes no sense, given that their concern is obviously tithe…i think it’s quite clear that conservatives are the most consistent when it comes to forwarding tithe…

i think NAD will just have to accept that a WO policy is going to bring a fall-out among conservatives, many who had left the church in the 90’s, and returned only because of the strongly conservative agenda of TW…the chances that these conservatives would support NAD without TW at the GC helm, even without WO, is zero to none…it isn’t going to happen…there’s no point in threading any kind of needle over whether providing for 1,000 women pastors while not ordaining them is the same as ordaining them…true conservatives don’t make this distinction…they don’t want women pastors, ordained or not…

the point is that because gender equality is biblical and right, NAD can expect replacement donors when conservatives stop giving, even if takes a little time…i think their bigger worry needs to be if and when, as seems likely, they eventually open the doors to LGBT…in this event, all bets truly are off…it won’t be just conservatives who stop giving…


(Sam Matthews) #65

With the NAD abandoning plans to ordain 1,000 women, it’s pretty clear, sadly, that LGBTQ ordination isn’t even visible from the table.

The NAD will not be moving toward or supporting the ordination of women to the ministry is the clear message that they’re sending in this rebuke of Fulcrum 7. In other words, the leaders of the NAD don’t like Fulcrum7 but are in lock-step with F7’s agenda.


(jeremy) #66

if this is true, it would be because NAD doesn’t have the courage of its expressed convictions…if NAD really believed in WO, it would be willing to suffer loss for that belief…F7 appears to be calling NAD’s bluff…


(Carlo Schroeder) #67

Either nobody read the adventist.org webpage which explains what component exists in the church under meetings, and how the the sisterhood functions. The divisions are extensions of the GC, which means the division follow the same policy as the GC, only modified to the region’s they are in. So if the NAD wants to hire a thousand female pastors, there is nothing wrong with that, because women can be pastors.
Unfortunately, it can’t house them all, so I am sure that this refers to unions, conferences, schools,etc hiring women.


(Carlo Schroeder) #68

Divisions don’t have constituency, only the GC, union and conference. Doesn’t people read anything published on this website.


(Johnny Carson) #69

Hmmm… examine ordination candidate resumes with no personal identifying information attached so that those who make the decisions are basing their decisions on qualifications alone… No ,that won’t work because in some cases the candidate’s gender might be a qualifying factor.


(Steve Mga) #70

“calling NAD’s bluff – or President Jackson’s bluff”
No. All President Jackson is saying – “Hiring 1000 women who qualify by Academic
Training to be pastors”.
Jeremy – to become a “Pastor” whether man or woman requires an Internship of
upwards to 2 years under a Pastor in a church AFTER graduation from one’s studies.
It is ONLY AFTER successfully completing the 2 years under Supervision, that one
CAN become a Candidate to be recognized and hired as bonified Pastor who can
work Independently for a Conference.
It is ONLY AFTER the 2 year Internship that A Union or Conference will decide WHAT
to Do with that person. The person might even Apply to another Union or Conference
for a “job”.
President Pastor Jackson has nothing to do as to what will become of the 1000 AFTER
they begin their Internship. Nor does he say if they will be Ordained or just Commissioned.
ALL he declares at this point is 1000 women to begin Internships as Pastors.
SOOO! Fulcrum7 JUMPED THE GUN, became Overly Anxious, and reported untrue
statements or consequences of statements by President Jackson that were UNTRUE!!


(jeremy) #71

but steve, the issue isn’t only about ordination…it’s also about being a pastor in the first place…my church is replete with conservatives…i can tell you that many conservatives don’t make the distinction NAD is trying to make…to them, a pastor, and an ordained pastor, are one and the same thing…this is why i’m saying there’s no point in trying to placate these people…NAD should just get on with ordaining women, and let the chips fall where they fall…but the reason they’re not doing this is because they’re fearful of losing conservative tithe money, which to me sounds a bit weak…


(Steve Mga) #72

Jeremy –
Having a man for a pastor, having a woman for a pastor is ALWAYS up to the LOCAL Church
Body to decide.
The Church Body or representatives of the Church Body meet with the prospective pastor
and make a determination, bring it back for OK-ing. If NO, then another candidate will be
interviewed. Or perhaps several at one time. and then a decision is made, and relayed to
the Conference Office.
Nobody is going to FORCE any Local Communion to have a pastor they do not want.


(Frankmer7) #73

Steve…

You haven’t been in my neck of the woods. In the GNYC, the local churches essentially have no say in who their pastor will be. It’s essentially dictated by the conference office. My own church was decimated at one point by a terrible decision that was forced upon us.

The most recent decision has worked out well, but the process was the same…we still had absolutely no say. No say in whether the local church wants the pastor to stay, no say in who the next pastor will be, etc. As the head elder of the church, I let the conference president know in no uncertain terms what I think of their policy and practice regarding this. I don’t think it made a dent.

The only thing that gets attention is the threat of withholding tithe. All of a sudden they become willing to work with you. Money talks…

Thanks…

Frank


#74

Hmm… This remind me of a speech from President George Bush Jr who said the the terrorists attacked America “because they hate freedom”.

Back then, I thought that that kind of statements were very simplistic.

Well, I could say the same thing here concerning these comments about Fulcrum7: very simplistic.

And considering the tones of the comments against Fulcrum7, I wonder who hates who, and who is being vitriolic and bitter.


(George Tichy) #75

I hope you have no doubt about this issue. Because anyone who holds a minimum of common sense should have absolutely no problem discerning it by comparing the comments here and there.


#76

Well, a lot of comments here would feel quite at home on Fulcrum7.


(jeremy) #77

but the thing with conservatives is, they don’t want anyone to have a woman pastor of any kind…for them, the question goes well beyond the bounds of a local congregation…

i don’t think NAD can or should placate conservatives when it comes to women pastors, ordained or not…conservatives have become insane on this point, as egw would say…


(Jeffrey Kent) #78

I agree with you, Nymous, that there are individuals here at this blog who are excessively critical. Nevertheless, I do see a difference in tone between Spectrum (more moderate) and Fulcrum7 (more strident), though I’ll admit I’m likely to react more negatively toward those whose views I find repulsive (i.e., the latter blog). I’m convinced that social media, for many, has become the devil’s tool. We should all strive to be more careful and Christ-like with our words.


(Floyd Florence) #79

I don’t see this WO issue going away or can go away until the Church FIRST deals with the question over “Headship Theology” … which I believe is Biblical - but… requiring “‘Male only’ Headship” is the question!

I can not expect a solution regarding WO until a clear teaching about “Male ‘only’ Headship” is settled and established as a “Fundamental Belief,” one way or the other.

Until then - the question; is God’s Church trying to “bind something on earth” that the Lord has “loosed in Heaven?!” Or, are some trying to “loose on earth” what God has “bound in heaven?”

I do have an opinion - and a strong opinion; but, I am open to see this “play out” as the Lord leads to see the study on the issue of “Headship.”

I see this as a question over the Government of God. In The Great Controversy, reference is made pg 593, “they can honor Him only as they have a right conception of His character, government, and purposes, and act in accordance with them.”

The idea that ordaining women will lead to approving lesbian practices in the church makes no more sense than believing that ordaining men will lead to approving homosexual practices in the church - it is a non sequitur!

Happy New Year … and Maranatha


#80

I totally agree with you. This is why it is important to pray for one another above all when dealing with sensitive subjects.

Let’s pray for the Holy Spirit’s guidance in our lives.


(Alice C ) #81

It depends on the church–size makes a difference and so does influence (including tithe!). Smaller churches don’t get much say in which pastors they get. Although my perception is that few conferences would place a woman pastor in a place where she wouldn’t be welcomed.