North American Division Responds to False Claim


(Steve Mga) #82

Frank–
Putting “Tithe” money in an escrow account would be a very good way to put pressure
on your conference.
And not releasing it until they are willing to allow your community of believers to be
able to pick and choose who will be their pastor. Have the opportunity to interview
prospective candidates AFTER the candidates provide a short letter of who they are,
why they want to be your group’s pastor.
You might talk this over with your Church Board members.


(jeremy) #83

i think the reason there does seem to be an association between WO and LGBT is not because the one causes the other, but because both have in common historically marginalized groups…women and gays have historically been marginalized in society and the church, so that when the one gets a smidgeon of acceptance, the other feels more hopeful, and possibly entitled…i think this is why WO and LGBT have followed in close succession in many non-adventist churches…it isn’t that WO causes LGBT, or gender confusion in youth, as doug batchelor has claimed…


(George Tichy) #84

Jeremy,
DB should not even be mentioned in SDA conversations anymore. He is now building his own religious empire, still claiming to be part of the SDA movement, but isn’t it obvious where he is going?

Well, competition may be good even between religious entities, isn’t it?


(Sam Matthews) #85

But far be it from Dan Jackson to support the ordination of women. This,the NAD considers, “false news.” How dare Fulcrum7 suggest that tbe NAD would support the ordination of women! The gall!

It’s like Dan Jackson wanted to come around to explain that they didn’t intend to support WO but knowing it would be unpopular, decided to frame it by pointing to some obscure website and screaming, “Look over there! Fake News!!!”

It is a weird diversionary tactic. Whoever runs communication at the NAD is a complete amateur at the level of a Trump-Tweet Screener.


(jeremy) #86

i could be wrong, but my understanding is that DB converted to adventism after many yrs of drug abuse…i’m not necessarily saying he’s permanently damaged, but i don’t see how he can have the same feeling for adventism as someone born into it, and whose family has been in it for several generations…


(Kevin Seidel) #87

You have missed some of the political maneuverings. A few years ago, NAD tried to give a “waiver” to its Unions to ordain women, the GC pres. stopped it because NAD is just an arm of the GC. Since then NAD has been supportive of women as pastors but has been careful to not cross the ordination line.


#88

“Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:22‬ ‭
“Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:23‬

Being born again occurs by the word of God.
Attaining purification comes through obeying the truth through the power and divinity of the Holy Spirit.

All mankind can be sanctified, purified, redeemed through this Divine intervention. Saul/Paul, David, every human, you and I and even DB.

God bids His people to order their lives by the living principles that moved Christ to sacrifice himself for the saving of the lost.

This spirit of strife must be overcome. When the soul is truly converted, all questions of promotion will be decided in the light of eternal interest.

Our desire for those in opposition to our own beliefs and options will be…
“Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:44‬ ‭


(Steve Mga) #89

Jeremy
“…women and GL’s have historically been marginalized in…the church, so that when the
one gets a smidgeon of acceptance, the other feels more hopeful, and possibly entitled. I
think this is why WO and LGBT have followed in close succession have followed in close
succession in many non-Adventist churches”
I would ADD “followed in close succession in many Adventist churches.”
Jeremy –
Discrimination is the ISSUE for both — Women. For LG’s. Both groups being seen as
UNWORTHY for Full Inclusion in the Worship of God.
Women because of Eve. Because women were uncounted in the 1st Century, so are
supposed to be continued in 2019.
LG’s because they are perpetual Sinners. Sinners are NOT allowed to worship in
SDA churches. SOME have been sneaking in and are tolerated, but NOT supposed to
be there.
THIS IS DISCRIMINATION.
By many, Discrimination of Humans is seen as a SIN against God. And so a new
Paradigm is made in many SDA communities. And see that ALL Humans are Loved
by God, and ALL are OK to serve God, with no reservations.
This is WHY many GL’s are accepted to conduct the music, be Deacons, run the PA
system, and have other Church positions.
Also women are seen as being in the Image of God, and therefore allowed to be called
by God to Service, no matter what that Service is, the same as Men are called, no matter
what that Service is.
This is the Paradigm of NON-Discrimination for the Few SDA communities.
You are fortunate to be in a Partial Non-discrimination community.


(Steve Mga) #90

Kevin–
Yes! the NAD DOES NOT provide ordination nor commission Certificates.
That is not allowed.
BUT the Unions in the Divisions ARE Authorized to Ordain who they want to.
And this is something some have decided to do.
Through the Union Presidents, President Jackson can promote the hiring of
1000 women to serve in the North American Division. But ALL of them will be
hired to begin their Internships through the UNION Presidents.

Yes. Unions approve all Ordinations in the Conferences. Many times a Union
Rep is part of the Ordination Team on stage during the ceremony.


(Carlo Schroeder) #91

Male Headship is s dangerous!! This happened to my mother in law, my father in law had a extra marital family, they found out, and he was sanctioned. But by sanctioning him, they also sanctioned her, bey she was not a worthy woman. How could she have permission this to happen, and what example is she giving her children. My mother in law became the guilty, while my father in law was rebaptised like nothing happened. The man also has the right of way, and at the expense of his spouse and daughters. Because every female member of the family became the guilty party, and the male, continues to live the life
A friend of mine, she found out that her father had two wife’s, at the same time. How did the organisation handle this, out him on early retirement because he was a good worker. But if a woman reports a abuse, she is dismissed. This is the reality of male headship.


(Kevin Seidel) #92

I think the GC can ordain missionaries, but the vast majority of ordainning is done by Conferences on approval of their Union.


(James Peterson) #93

How does a man even begin to answer what you have written above?

The problem is NOT “male headship”, Carlo Schroeder. For every story you give, there is one about a guilty woman. And another thing, why do you gather to yourself those thorns that constantly prick? Surely there are more stories of men and women doing just fine, than they are of those wreaking havoc.

God created Adam first and from Adam, He made Eve. That is that. No one can change what He had done. And because He had created Adam first and made Adam responsible for all that He had on earth, when Eve became the devil’s advocate, even though she was the one through whom sin entered the world, God said to Adam, “Cursed is the ground, Adam (not Eve), FOR YOUR SAKE …”

“Male Headship” was designed and instituted by God. PERIOD. But as Paul says, “Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her …” Eph. 5:25

In heaven THIRTEEN MEN will rule. Matthew 19:28 What would you say then? Seeing that you were told so beforehand, what are your plans?

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(Steve Mga) #94

James –
you missed the whole point of Carlo’s stories.
It was the WOMEN who were censured and punished.
Not the men involved in being the Perps.


(James Peterson) #95

That is why I said, “The problem is NOT male headship, Carlo Schroeder. For every story you give, there is one about a guilty woman.

BOTH MEN AND WOMEN ARE SUSCEPTIBLE TO LAPSES IN JUDGMENT.

Have you not read of Potiphar’s wife against Joseph in the Bible? And of Herod’s “wife” against John the Baptist? What happened to both men? Were they not censured and punished even though they were both in the right? And didn’t the women continue on as though they had done no wrong? Surely you’re not one to jump on just any bandwagon rolling helter-skelter through the station?

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(Tim Teichman) #96

Well, that’s one of the creation stories. The other is that they created Humans together on the last day of creation, as the pinnacle of the creation process.

Genesis 1:
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them [the last act of creation].
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.
2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.
2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work.

Or Adam was created first when nothing else existed except the bare earth and new streams flowing from it, named all the animals as they were created, then was lonely, and then Eve was created.

We can’t have it both ways, but we pretend we can.


(James Peterson) #97

Gen. 1 is the summary.

Gen. 2 is the exposition.

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(Stan Lastings) #98

I will leave everyone’s opinion on DB’s self psyche…take a peek at his “masterpiece”

http://www.granitebaysda.org


(Stan Lastings) #99

So unless Genesis read at the same time with his left hand God created Adam and with His right hand He created Eve you would subscribe to headship and first ordering. But I then think you would complain that God created Adam with His left hand and not His right hand. Did you miss the word mankind?


(James Peterson) #100

It is not so much a question of who was created FIRST, but who was made from whom? Out of Adam has come every living human being today. Is it not so?

And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.” Gen. 2:21-22

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(Tim Teichman) #101

That is not correct. They are two different stories written at two different times in two different dialects of ancient Hebrew and they identify God by two different names, Elohim and Yahweh.

Here are some links describing this in much more fascinating detail:

https://www.bibleodyssey.org/en/passages/related-articles/two-creations-in-genesis

https://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/Genesis_texts.html