On Rejecting the Spirit of Prophecy


#209

Now, what about the inverse?

To wit:

Rejecting out-of-hand what the Seventh-day Adventist :registered: church calls “the Spirit of Prophecy” is rejecting what the Book of Revelation calls “the spirit of prophecy.”

Tricky?

Indeed.


#210

How is that the inverse? How about having another go at it? Anyway it is great that we are finally having this discussion. Let’s see what it will yield.


(Johnny Carson) #211

And I have seen many who work within the church tirelessly for God lose their faith in Him as well. Loss of faith in God due to a specific emphasis within the field of the work is not a particularly valid argument here as far as I can tell.


#212

I understand why that sounded garbled, Beres.

Let me try to put it another way.

I agree in substance with Chuck’s point that Adventism’s appropriating the archetypal term “the spirit of prophecy” from the Scripture and applying to a 19th century woman who started a new religion is a misreading, at best.

That is so awkward and inelegant that it falls into my “not even wrong” category.

On the other hand, look at “the spirit of prophecy” in Bible terms:

At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God!

For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus."

Notice that the messenger bore the testimony of Jesus, yet was very clear that he was only a fellow servant who holds the testimony with us.

In other words, we hold this treasure (Spirit) in earthen vessels, and should never mistake the vessel for the treasure.

See thou do it not!

There are many treasures in the material attributed to Ellen White, in my opinion.

But I don’t mistake the earthen vessel for the treasure.

Don’t do it!

Quench not the Spirit.
Despise not prophesyings.
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.


#213

Gillian Ford on Ellen White:

Even divinely granted visions were not always immediately understood by her any more than Daniel understood his.

.

Thus, we see a devout messenger of God inhibited by human frailty, yet led of God to oppose trends that would destroy the purpose of this divinely sponsored movement for the latter days.

To take her pronouncements at times of crisis and apply them baldly ever afterwards, is to forget that circumstances alter cases. “That which God gives His servants to speak today would not perhaps have been present truth twenty years ago, but it is God’s message for this time.”

Ellen G. White is not our authority. That position only Scripture can hold. To divert from “the Bible and the Bible only” as the “sole bond of union” and our only “creed,” would be to cease to be either Biblical or Protestant, and could only result in splitting this church down the middle.

Link


#214

I agree, Chuck.

What would Jesus and the Hebrew prophets say about slaughtering religious political prisoners for their organs?

Be careful what you ask for, Beres.

The 501c3 trademarked Seventh-day Adventist Church is a runaway train carrying Ellen G. White and 20 million passengers. No human hand can stop it.

THE CHICAGO BUILDINGS VISION

Ellen White’s Chicago Buildings Vision was her most spectacular prophetic blunder, and the relating of it to Dr. John Harvey Kellogg in an official “testimony” [“testimony” understood by all Adventists to mean a communication from God through his mouthpiece, Ellen White, to an individual person or group] resulted in her becoming the butt of jokes among the group of Adventist physicians who had associated themselves with Dr. Kellogg at the Battle Creek Sanitarium.

Even her Clintonian evasiveness was no match for the giant intelligentsia represented by this group of doctors. Their incomes were not dependent on the Seventh-day Adventist Church, so they were able to react to things as reason and common sense would indicate. She would spend the next three years trying to escape the problems she created for herself, but her excuses were unconvincing and even comical at times.

The fiasco resulted in the unmasking of Ellen White as a false prophet and initiated a series of events that led to the secret 1919 Bible Conference meeting that forced the top leaders of Adventism to debate whether to come clean with the Church and denounce her as a fraud or to continue the cover-up of the truth about her.

Additional prophetic blunders between the turn of the century and her death in 1915 virtually forced the delegates of the 1919 Bible Conference to address the issue of her fraudulent prophetic claims. For an over-view of the history of these events, please see the 8th Edition of LYING FOR GOD: What Adventists Knew And When They Knew It!

Extensive research has made it possible to assemble a time-line of events surrounding the Chicago Buildings Fiasco—a time-line that nails Ellen White to the wall and proves beyond any reasonable doubt that she attempted to cover her blunder by a series of falsehoods.

By trying to create the illusion that God had given her the supernatural ability to discern what people were doing on the other side of the world, she embarrassed herself and the Church.

In fact, by claiming to speak for God when she clearly did not speak for Him represents a type of blasphemy.

http://www.truthorfables.com/CHICAGO_BUILDINGS_VISION.pdf

The problem is that Ellen White was not a credible witness at times, but, then, I have little faith in the credibility of any of the power players of Adventism, past and present.

That’s why I have repeated overpowering urges to walk away and never look back.

Adventism reflects my own divided mind. I own that. I’m here working out my own salvation with chattering teeth and fear and trembling.

There is no human help for this at the corporate level, and as with fiscal quantitative easing, the ability to bail ourselves out is now exhausted.

The ship is sinking.

Our number is up.

The clock is striking midnight.

The party’s over.


#215

On personally rejecting the SDA SOP…

There is something very, very wrong here.

Ellen White with her “dignified person” who accompanied her in visions…no…that is creepy and I’m just not going there, “beautiful words” and long decades of personal investment notwithstanding.

She was a spiritualist.

All the confounding dishonesty, the mind games, the gaslighting…no more.

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
—Jesus

I guess I will be pondering that for the rest of my life.


(Thomas Schwartz) #216

And this is the reason why no one, of any color, gender or upbringing who gets elected to the top levels of official Adventism can ever play a different tune on this question than the one pastor Wilson is playing today.


#217

Thank you for the link. I’m not sure that we should dismiss Harris because he is atheist. The points he made seems to be coming gruent with many points of the speakers of the conference are making. So, the pulpit doesn’t magically change these points to sound better or to be more authoritative. Likewise, modern context of social justice is derived from certain trail of secular humanism, so Christian orthodoxy would naturally oppose it.

Hearing secular thinkers and sociologists oppose it not because they are aligned with Christian ideology, but rather because of certain facts, is a much viable argument to make in face of social justice being largely a secular movement that would likely do what many people are doing here, including the author of the OP - interpretating Christianity as a social justice religious mechanism.


(George Tichy) #218

This does not make any sense. So,

  1. How many is “several?” Really, how many have YOU seen losing their faith because they were committed to social justice?
  2. Have you also seen people losing their faith who are not committed to social justice.
  3. Do you support “social injustice” then?
  4. Do you have ANY proof or research proving a correlation between support to social justice and loss of faith?

Until these questions are answered responsibly and seriously, it is very irresponsible to spread negative suggestions that may be, just may be, nothing but the unfounded product of bias.


(William Noel) #220

There are many reasons why people such as you have described have lost their faith. Two decades ago I lost my faith because of the hypocrisy surrounding me. Fortunately, God loved me far more than many in the church and over time He rebuilt my faith built on my relationship with Him instead of the influence of others whose faith was built more on tradition and their own ego than any relationship with God. I listed “social justice” involvement because it is so powerfully appealing to those who are motivated to actually do the good works Jesus wants us doing, yet who are not finding opportunity to do it within the church. That makes it far easier for someone to be drawn into the confused morals and ethics of “social justice” causes.


(William Noel) #221

Luke 16:29-30. If you won’t believe the testimony of an eyewitness, what will you believe?


(George Tichy) #222

I expected you to answer the questions seriously. If you don’t, why should all your set of ideas be taken seriously then?
Just throwing those so called “facts” in here but refusing to substantiate or at least explain them further undermines their validity. Therefore, they may actually be nothing but mere malarkey…


(William Noel) #223

Well said!

I know several people who are leaders of large-scale ministries and every one of them started small. Ministries don’t start big, they begin on the individual level and grow as God blesses. My great wish is for everyone who claims to be a follower of Jesus to begin ministering, as you said, by ministering to the ones we encounter. Those are the intimate moments that keep reminding me of how God ministers to each of us in the ways that are most meaningful to us individually.

Some years ago I helped establish a church food pantry that God blessed in amazing ways and it grew to where it was serving almost 200 families each week. Then I lost my job and it wasn’t long before my growing family was being fed from it. My spirits were very low when I went to work at the pantry one afternoon when I was asked to carry bags of groceries to a car. The clients were two single mothers who were living together with four children between them because of the high cost of housing there in Southern California. As we put the bags into the car trunk one of the kids looked in a bag and found a high-end, gourmet ice cream cake and began exclaiming about it because it was a treat he had been wanting. I knew how much they cost if purchased at the grocery store instead of coming through the area food bank and I also knew there was no way I could afford anything like that, but God was sustaining us. I couldn’t get away quick enough and a few steps away I found one of the giant oak trees and began watering it with my tears because it was such a powerful and personal rebuke to me for doubting God’s ability to care for us. Matthew 25:21.


(William Noel) #224

“First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.” 2 Peter 3:3


#225

And even that doesn’t settle WFNoel’s position. After proving correlation, causation still needs to be established.


(George Tichy) #226

Drinking in the morning may be unsafe and lead to nonsense… :wink:
But you are not going to comment on my 4 questions, are you?


(George Tichy) #227

Why do you think he is avoiding commenting on my questions? It’s obvious, isn’t it?
Just look what he is doing. Instead of being reasonable and commenting of my questions, he is picking biblical verses to suggest that my intention is “scoffing and following their [my] own evil desires.” I am truly impressed!.. :wink: But it only weakens his empty accusations against social justice.


#228

I’d say he has to. What is the ‘discipline’ of apologetics without the evasion, spin, obfuscation, deflection etc.?


#229

Cassie, here’s my present for you today. It’s an absolute gem that I’m sure you’ll love.

“I have the most precious matter to reproduce and place before the people in testimony form. While I am able to do this work, the people must have things to revive past history, that they may see that there is one straight chain of truth, without one heretical sentence , in that which I have written.” ( Selected Messages Book 3 , p.52).

And that’s just one instance where she asserts her inerrancy. So through the miracle of circular reasoning—cheer up, brethren—we can find warrant for our veneration in that assurance from the Servant of the Lord herself.