On Rejecting the Spirit of Prophecy

(Johnny Carson) #232

Jesus led by example. He was, by any description imaginable, an enthusiastic social justice warrior, outside the auspices of his denomination. I rest my case :blush:

(Patrick Travis) #233

He was a “social justce” warrior but consider the possibility in wasn’t related to the powers of this world or using their terminology. It uses a different language uknown in true substance by the “world.”
He came to fulfill covenant promises and announce the “kingdom had come unto them.” All trusting in Him become members of that kingdom. Jew, greek, gentile, male and female alike.

(Sirje) #234


God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and many ways, in these last days has spoke to us IN His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things through whom also He made the world.

Hebrew 1:1, 2


That’s why God created Spectrum.

(reliquum) #243

That not one be lost.

what if this is the core truth of “worship with all of ones heart?”
That not one is excluded by a flimsy NIMC (not in my church) excuse…
would not that be love peculiar?

(Patrick Travis) #244

I think Jn.16 is particularly pertinent to the Subject and attention is shown to the primary work of the Spirit of prophecy when the Spirit came.
“IT” Always speaks of Christ and not himself. His message always “convicts of sin, righteousness and judgment” and how that relates to Christ. This is the first and primary sign of the Spirit in all messages.

(Charles Scriven) #245

You commenters are really persistent, and because I think any living tradition involves resistance, criticism and contestation, I am glad that some parts, at least, of Adventism are still alive.

Dismissing the phrase “social justice” because of its association with a contemporary political movement is like dismissing the word “romance” because of association it may have with promiscuity. Although my argument might link up with some goals of some versions (there are several) of contemporary socialism, it doesn’t correlate entirely with any particular contemporary socialism. I was defending Jesus and the prophets, and they, certainly, were never interested in atheism, any more than, say, Martin Luther King was. They did think that one way or another, God’s servants must seek social, or societal, justice. If we could agree on that, a conversation could ensue on how best to bear our witness.

Any way, the biblical for pursuing society justice i altogether compelling—although no one yet has taken on the particular biblical argument (that stuff in Matthew and Isaiah and Amos) that I offered.

And by the way, nothing in my argument is meant to undermine evangelism or personal sanctification or the importance of responding to the Holy Spirit.

Oh Yes, and why has no one yet taken up this challenge: How would exclusive focus on personal service to the vulnerable have helped to overcome child labor and Jim Crow laws? Or is the “kingdom” of God—note the political metaphor—uninterested in such things?

(Patrick Travis) #246

Hi Chuck,
Glad you could come back in. I did answer about slavery and segregation and believe as part of a cultural mandate we do as Christians attempt to inform the state in their realm of power.
As far as Amos and the prophets their message was not to the Philistines /gentiles but Israel to return to covenant unless a specific prophet like Jonah was sent to the gentiles to call them to repentance.
As I stated before the modern problem of the churches involvement with the state for “provision” aspects does not have a biblical basis. Could you provide? I am not sugessting the state has no right. I am suggesting the church has no “moral” blueprint there and it is primarily a socio-economic view in the messy times of gentile rule.
Respectively, Pat

(David Okamura) #247

How does one read the parable of the Talents without seeing the hint at Capitalism. You can say it is a spiritual truth, but what then is the lesson for humanity? I read it for its practical lesson for self sufficiency in matters of finances , to be responsible for yourself and family, and not be a free loader depending on others (government) for your upkeep. It is a parable that seems to be critical of those who do nothing with the little they are given. The Master has little tolerance for excuses to the extent that what little the servant has been given will be taken away. It seems rather harsh admonition for those who think they " have little" and are to be " cast into into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth". Where is the compassion ? Is poverty and injustice a state of mind? Why is there no appeal to for “social justice” and the community to come to his rescue ? Why the contempt for the "least " of these? Where is his advocate? Why should we be concerned for those who make little or no effort to help themselves? My impression of Social Justice Warriors is they give off an
air arrogance and moral superiority. Those who do not share their socialist philosophy are shamed and demeaned . I think they mean well, at least I’ll give them that. But why so vocal and why so adamant that they are “right”?
I believe God loves rich people and poor people alike. So why the prejudice against the wealthy especially the 1%? It seems very un-Christ like to harbor prejudice of any kind.- rich or poor black or white gay or straight male or female SDA or Catholic, pretty or ugly
I think we need to learn to able to differentiate between an ideology or world view from the person who subscribes to it. They are not the same thing. There should be vigorous debate and discussion over ideas without getting personal I think God loves people without regard to their religion or ideology. In the final analysis what difference does it make if you hold socialist or capitalist ideology They may both be flawed.

(Patrick Travis) #248

In fact they both are flawed Dave. The reason I prefer “free market capitalism” is it offers the most choices, freedom and benefits to all.
Admitted our system has been corrupted by crony special interest usually thru the reigns of and empowerment of government. The problem is that over time there is no Jubilee or gentile equivalent.

(Lizwi Alpha Ntuli) #249

I totally agree. I sometimes thing we overdo the preaching part and neglect the practical aspects. I think we should view the commission as go ye therefore and preach, but as: as you go, preach… We are under surveillance from many people. They have heard our message. They want us to demonstrate how it can be lived.

(Maria V. Blair) #250

" Justice* definition is - the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments"…according to Webster. And then the Bible describes “justice” as righteousness. “I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work” and “but let justice roll on like a river, righteousness like a never-failing stream!” (left the reference out so you can look up your own “justice”). It does not matter what comes before the word “justice” because clearly God will address every single issue throughout eternity. Our job is to take the message of “good news”, the Jesus’ message and include every single person as deserving of God’s love despite what we personally believe they deserve or what the church demands that they should be. Otherwise righteousness by faith is null and void and as the Bible says “all our righteousness (definition of biblical justice) are like filthy rags”. The word rag in itself is bad enough and when you have “filthy” before it, no comments. The institution needs to continuously do their laundry.

(Sirje) #251

There’s nothing to take on. Of course, taking care of orphans and widows is a Christian mandate; but by invoking Fox/MSNBC you’re inviting a pie throwing contest.

It would be good to define some terms. “Social justice” has become a political issue, and invokes pictures of women with pink bunny ears descending on Washington - men in black masks directing traffic in Seattle - and Berkley kids throwing furniture through plate glass windows; while the other “side” pictures old ladies with pursed lips napping in the back row of any church.

The initial objection was the use of Revelation to push, what is at present, a political issue - nothing against Amos,Isaiah, Matthew or Jesus on the subject. The prophesy spoken of in Rev. 12 and 19 has to do with what the angel has been showing John. Does it include social justice as a Christian duty - not in these verses unless you want it to.

(Charles Scriven) #252


Thanks, Pat.

One point you seem to overlook: the first couple chapters of Amos are precisely prophetic indictments of injustice on the part of Israel’s neighbors. The prophet applies the same demanding standards to them as to Israel.


(Charles Scriven) #253

Interpreting parables is tricky. In addition to the parable of the talents, look, for example, at the parable of the landowner and laborers, in Matt. 20:1-16. Chuck

(Charles Scriven) #254

My argument, please notice, says nothing against free-market capitalism. I do imply, however, that the amorality of Adam Smith (read his account of famine) invites this proviso: capitalism may be the most efficient system for distribution of resources, but it is morally insufficient. Such virtues as generosity have to be brought to moderate both the system itself and the hearts of those who participate in it.

The Gospel offers no particular clue about economic systems except this: we have to out of our way to enable the most vulnerable to flourish. Chuck__

(Patrick Travis) #255

Really Chuck, you can do better than that. God, condemning the surrounding nations?
Amos, mission was to point out Israel’s false And Syncretistic worship as well as there failure to keep covenant, evidenced by their social actions. For failure to return they would receive the covenant curses.
The surrounding nations were not called to covenant keeping.

(Charles Scriven) #256

Sirje said: The initial objection was the use of Revelation to push, what is at present, a political issue - nothing against Amos,Isaiah, Matthew or Jesus on the subject.

But the Bible is relevant to the present, or it worthy only of display in museums. As for the Fox-MSNBC reference, you surely realized that I was myself objecting to pie-throwing contests. Chuck

(Patrick Travis) #257

Thats the purpose of “the church” to reform the “inside”…not to use/side/ ride on the back of government to force…the “outside.”

(Patrick Travis) #258

Remembering, I am referring to the provision component.