On Rejecting the Spirit of Prophecy

(Patrick Travis) #259

Exactly, the gospel doesn’t talk about econonic systems. I wasn’t referring to your article but to another post.

(Sirje) #260

Once upon a time an evangelist came to my town. His name was Lowe. In his opening introduction to the series he came to present, he said the Bible authenticated his message as it said “Lo, I am with you always” ( chuckle). Just because prophesy is mentioned in Revelation in connection with the “testimony of Jesus” doesn’t mean we can pick out our particular cause as the main testimony. There is no hint that the “testimony of Jesus” is about our involvement in social justice, as laudable as that may be.

Agreed. But what does it mean? In the context in which it was stated, it was an admonishment to John for bowing before the angel, who said, “Don’t do that. I’m just carrying the testimony of Jesus which is the spirit (essence) of the prophesy I have just been giving you”.

This non-involvement with social issues goes way back in Adventist history. I believe it comes from Ellen White who had a problem with getting involved in politics. The problem is we see “social justice” to be a government issue. Often it is; but that is not what Jesus was pitching.

Thanks for replying.


Thank you! It does make sense that it was simply part of that call to desist. I never heard or thought of that before. This right here is why God created Spectrum.


Folks, while we’re on the subject of social policy in relation to saving souls, a veteran warrior will be laid to rest tomorrow. Viewing today. Any respects here?


Well, that’s the problem with group identity, isn’t it? The problem is that groups don’t really exist apart from concept that translates to some category or identity affiliation.

For example, when we say “white people”, there aren’t really a coherent group of “white people” that all share the same culture, or agree on all of the issues. A “Louisiana white people” would be a different culture from “NYC white people”, or white Ukrainian immigrants like me. And even in those specific geolocations, the subcultures may be rather different. For example, if you take Biker subculture, it’s vastly different than a “city-tech” subculture.

The problem with these group identity categories as these relate to social justice is that these are looking at aggregate statistics as some monolithic “black” or monolithic “white” as though these are “real” groups out there and not normalized data that shifts people into groups to derive dubious tendencies. I’m not saying that it’s not useful, but that’s not how we JUDGE individuals in society, and social justice inevitably somehow trickles down to how individuals relate to these groups.

Hence, I’m not really sure how we can viably discuss these issue when individuals are blamed for something based on affiliation with a group, or they are allegedly victimized because they are affiliated with a different group.

It’s a rather bleak outlook on our potential as individuals to transcend these group margins.


Ellen White chastised John Harvey Kellogg severely for taking up the cause of the “unworthy poor” in Chicago.

She said creating worldwide missions was more important and that the poor were a money pit (paraphrasing).

Losing Kellogg (tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail) is probably why the Adventist health message went down the tubes, in my opinion.

I don’t trust Ellen White, but I can’t seem to help listening to her, against my better judgment, and many sleepless nights.


Yes, indeed.

But no matter how many times I post this link, people will still come back with her other statements, e.g., “we have much to learn and much to unlearn.”

Ellen White’s Claims


There is no way out of this but prostrate before God, I believe.

Adventism is all about thinking. Thinking won’t help, but will only dig us in deeper.

(Steve Mga) #266

Cassie –
One of the Psalmist writers says, I MEDITATE… day and night.
This is MORE than just Thinking.
SDAs are NOT taught in elementary, high school, college, university
about HOW to meditate.
If you read SDA literature, the PROCESS of Meditation is made fun of,
is told it is “scary”, told it is of the Devil.
So BOTH Meditation and Transformation are REJECTED and so we just have
superficial reading and talking about the Scriptures, both in private
worship, and in group worship.


But very erudite, it must be added, Steve.

Adventists are nothing if not highly learned.

The Ivory Tower is unassailable.


At least purportedly–thank God for that. But not when it comes to thinking honestly about Adventism itself. It may well be, however, that that same aversion to introspection and change–that rigid intransigence it calls “unshakable faith”–is the genius of religion that ensures its longevity.

(Johnny Carson) #269

I said this elsewhere but it seems apropos here.

Religion: Man’s attempt to codify God

Spirituality: God’s ability to inhabit a life


If only those were dictionary definitions.

Sorry. That should be, “the genius of successful religions that ensures their longevity.”


My friend Randy took pity on my sleepless angst and sent me this, which he wrote several years ago:

Ellen White Letter Discovered at Pacific Union College; Experts Confirm Authenticity
Ellen White Letter Discovered at Pacific Union College; Experts Confirm Authenticity

FWIW, I recently contacted Amazing Facts, a ministry of a well known Adventist pastor/author and asked them to comment on an article I read by another quite well known Adventist pastor/author. The article dealt with our assurance in the end times but I was interested in several Ellen White quotes it contained about the gospel:

‘We cannot have the assurance and perfect confiding trust in Christ as our Saviour until we acknowledge Him as our King and are obedient to His commandments.’ (Faith and Works, p.16).

‘When souls are converted, their salvation is not yet accomplished. They then have the race to run. An arduous struggle is before them.’
(My Life Today, p. 313)

‘We are saved by climbing round after round of the ladder, looking to Christ, clinging to Christ, mounting step by step to the height of Christ, so that He is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption. Faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly-kindness, and charity are the rounds of this ladder’ (Testimonies, vol.6, p.147).

In contrast, here is the Ellen White view of the gospel per AF (with which I agree):
‘It is the righteousness of Christ that makes the penitent sinner acceptable to God and works his justification. However sinful has been his life, if he believes in Jesus as his personal Saviour, he stands before God in the spotless robes of Christ’s imputed righteousness.’ (Faith and Works, p. 106).

Quotes of Ellen White used to support two different gospels, some from the same book.
In the first group she speaks of faith and works being required for salvation, in the second belief or faith in what Christ has done for us and that His perfect righteousness has been credited to us is all that is required (as I understand it, the mainstream Protestant position).
God promises us new life and so the resulting works are a product, not a cause, of salvation.

And every city or house divided against itself will not stand…


Despite the patently religious stance of your friend’s piece, I rather like this snippet:

Here’s an approximation from JFK:

“Too often we hold fast to the clichés of our forebears. We subject all facts to a prefabricated set of interpretations. We enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. Mythology distracts us everywhere. For the great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie: deliberate, contrived, and dishonest. But the myth: persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.”


Absolutely, Dave.

We certainly have our work cut out for us.

I suggest we assume the posture of Elijah, if we want our brains to function properly.

Talk about a house divided against itself:


Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease.

Sometimes the disease is the cure.


I suppose there must be some scenario where that’s the case. Food for thought. Or are we talking vaccines here? :sunglasses:


You have a good sniffer. :sunglasses:


You’re too kind. And in return for that bit of generosity (one good turn deserves another), here’s a shameless plug for my Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/adventistopen/