On Rejecting the Spirit of Prophecy

(Kim Green) #21

"How long must we rely on injustices of the past as ones message?"

Many would say…until they are fixed.


I’m not really sure that would be concern of Jesus, since he came and went in a society that was ran by indentured servitude slavery mechanisms that included sale and purchasing of human being on marketplace as a cultural norm, yet he assumed the role of a “house slave” when he shocked and embarrassed everyone and washed their feet after they were clamoring about how much they deserved recognition and respect. He actually had a different type of justice in mind as he personally assumed responsibility and punishment for all of the shortcomings of humanity and carried its burdens.

So, no. I doubt Internet access and living wage is more important to Jesus than a functional community of people that isn’t divided into oppressor and victims camp in order to squeeze political points and dominate each other through consensus of pluralism.

(Patrick Travis) #23

Kim, few of us in life have not had injustices. Do Asians and Hispanics have none? My comment is not to disparage any but a culture of victimhood is cancerous…because it denies personal responsibility and accountability

(Patrick Travis) #24

Here is the problem Chuck, as I see it. Some are trying to make society the church.
In the OT, the laws were to “the church” of Israel. They weren’t to the Philistines. They were specific to Israel and yes they had specific concerns for the poor and and others and the remedies given. None were redistribution of earned wealth through taxation.
In The early church provision was to be made for widows. But, if one capable did not work in the church they would not eat of the churches resources. Their was no guaranteed annual income or medical benefit.
I suggest many are offering a perversion of biblical principles to apply to society as a whole where no such biblical principle exists. The Bible offers no “material” guarantees for all.
I am open to hear my errors biblically.

(Patrick Travis) #25

Steve, Isa.52:7 tells us the good news of the Kingdom of God. “Our God reigns” by bringing about His covenant promises including salvation in His Son.
Isa. 61 tells us how those promises are to be fulfilled for His chosen people. Jesus reiterates part of them. Some remain.


The problem here is that social justice has its meaning in socialism you can read about that on my blog article of a few years ago, I will put the link at the end. Of course justice is a term that applies to people dealing with other people. You don’t have to say social with justice because there is no justice except between people, or some supernatual beings such as God. So social justice would be redundant if it was just jusitce between people, obviously that is not its meaning. It has precious little meaning and that is why it is hardly ever defined by those that use it. It is a convenience they use for their beliefs. So what about racial justice…again that is simply justice between people so no need for the modifier, unless without regard for actual justice one pits groups or races against other groups or races, in which case justice is gone. What about environmental justice. When I build out of lumber have I been unjust to a tree? Of course not, is my dog unjust to pee on the lawn? What is legal justice, legal is the laws instituted to help deliver justice, usually it means that one has taken someone to court in some way to obtain justice by the force of law backed by the authority and power of the government… So are you missing the concept of Justice, In fact you have not even used the concept of justice



I wouldn’t say that the means of fixing these issues is via sponsoring incompetence via perpetuating the welfare culture. Or playing into the strategy of the identity politics that pins large scales of populations against each other.


What are you proposing, then? Political disengagement?


I’m no guru claiming to have all of the answers, but as JP would say… if you want to fix the world, how about starting with cleaning up your room? If your room is a mess what chance is there for you to bring order to the political system? And I mean literally cleaning your room and your house.

Then, cleaning up your relationships. Focusing on your goals. Finishing high school education, or getting GED… or some college if time and resources permit. Mentoring someone once you reach your goals. Getting married, raising children and staying married when children are growing up. Staying in the area. Getting a job or starting a business and hiring local people or training them up.

Of course you could add some virtue values to the mix like throwing our music and films that perpetuate negative black cultural stereotypes. Quitting social media and ignoring TV news. Supporting local churches and community clubs.

All of the above have far more impactful consequences for black community than clamoring for free handouts from via governmental handouts. The former infuse communities with a sense of self-control and power, and the latter rob the communities of power that they delegate to a group of people who exploit it for political gain by saying what people want to hear. And that’s actually goes for both parties.

Politics is a way to waste time in arguments that eventually accomplish very little except dividing local communities into victims and oppressors.


Thanks for posting your blog URL, Ron. I see where your viewpoint really is in your 2010 blog post.

“Jim Wallis is a Marxist,” you write, and a “Democratic operative” because he supports social justice.

That explains a lot, Ron, and why you hate the term “social justice.”

(George Tichy) #31

Please, what is your definition of “Liberalism?”


I don’t see anyone here advocating “incompetence” through “perpetuating the welfare culture,” do you?


Thank you Chuck for your incisive dissection of texts that have been misconstrued and misapplied!

One hundred and four years after EGW’s demise ( 1915 ) her legacy has been sullied by her prolific plagiarism — a casual reader has no idea which phrase / paragraph / page has been borrowed / stolen / plagiarized. Her vociferous claims that her utterances were God inspired means that God took a most circuitous route, ( via contemporary authors ) to convey his messages to her!

Her multiple racist utterances ( blacks and whites should not worship under the same roof ) ( her abysmal “amalgamation “ explanation of the origin of the black race ) are poisonously politically uncorrect in today’s environment…

Her multiple assertions as to the age of the earth ( six thousand years ) have been crippling to our science faculties at our universities and colleges.

In my eighty three years, I can remember when every Adventist sermon was prolific with Spirit of Prophecy quotations.

Happily, now I never hear her mentioned in our worship hours .

Although in TW’s sermons and articles EGW quotes still outnumber Biblical texts.

Chuck, your emphasis on SOCIAL JUSTICE in our denomination is applaudable . — the mere existence or “regional conferences “ in the twenty first century, betrays a legacy of racism in Adventism.


So,while focusing on black/ white dynamics, when speaking of social justice, let us not forget the other minorities adversely Impacted by our church:

The shabby shunning and shaming of our LGBT members ( the largest compliance committee is consumed with a witch hunt against this vunersble minority !).

Also the malevolent, malicious, misogyny that currently causes division, dissension , disruption in our denomination (WO ) is despicable!

(Sirje) #34

Sometime you have to turn the page to get the whole verse. :thinking:

Context is everything!


What a church it would be…if the Spirit of Prophecy led us to the Hebrew prophets, and they led us to justice! Didn’t Amos say "Let justice flow like a river…? Is that how people know us now? Subtly above are tucked fears of giving to the undeserving, of being left behind when putting others forward.

If we looked beyond our precious remnant, we would find sophisticated mission-focused data-driven organizations all over the world doing Jesus’ work simply because it needs to be done. For the same reasons He did it.

Unencumbered by theology beyond respect for human need, they merge those needs with resources in a studied manner to show quantifiable/scalable results. Read about the Skoll Foundation. Look up the Mulago Foundation that funds “organizations that tackle a basic need of the very poor, have a scalable solution, and know how to deliver it”. Be inspired by the now 10 year old story of Martin Fisher’s foot pedaled water pumps and their effect on productivity in nsmall African farms. Social entrepreneurs are addressing justice all over the world while we ponder whether those Hebrew prophets applied to us.

If justice is to roll on like water - we must become more facile in identifying the needs around us and more daring and scientific in how we meet them and who we partner with to achieve results. This ain’t Dorcas anymore!

(Lizwi Alpha Ntuli) #36

Ellen G. White was not the Spirit Of Prophecy, she had the Spirit of Prophecy. In her writings, she never said she was the last prophet the church would ever have. So to me, it is not surprising that God may raise another prophet to redirect the church that is losing focus on real issues. Loyalty to Ellen White should never make us reject God’s messengers. If we do that, it would mean that we did not understand or truly believe her messages.

On social justice, according to Isaiah 58, if we ignore it because we want to focus on preaching the gospel, then we are lost. We cannot fast and oppress our workers and expect God to accept our worship… Thank you for the eye-opener

(Patrick Travis) #37

Please, what is your definition of “Liberalism?”<<

George, on the subject at hand, I suggest you read the introduction of the book for my “definition.” Better yet, the whole book! :slight_smile:

(Sirje) #38

Of course they are; but I thought we were supposed to correct the misreading of Rev. 12 and 19. We can’t just throw everything on these verses and see what sticks. The Bible passages have CONTEXT. Now, we can apply the Gospel call to include all of these social issues, but that is not what Jesus was concerned with. In fact there is a shocking statement Jesus made on this issue. Jesus had gone to Simon’s house in Bethlehem. A woman came with expensive perfume and poured it on Jesus’ head. The discipled complained:

But the disciples were indignant - Why this waste? For the perfume might have been sold for a high price and the money given to the poor. But Jesus said to them: Why do you bother the woman? ** For she has done a good deed to me. FOR YOU ALWAYS HAVE THE POOR WITH YOU; BUT YOU DO NOT ALWAYS HAVE ME. FOR WHEN SHE POURED THIS PERFUME ON MY BODY, SHE DID TO PREPARE ME FOR BURIAL. WHEREVER THIS GOSPEL IS PREACHED IN THE WHOLE WORLD, WHAT THIS WOMAN HAS DONE WILL ALSO BE SPOKEN OF IN MEMORY OF HER.

OF COURSE, Christians will attend to the poor, the sick, the needy, BUT, Jesus’ focus was His Gospel of the kingdom. Yes, it includes the 'social gospel" as our PERSONAL calling as followers of Christ; but the main focus still needs to be “Christ, and Him crucified”. (Matt. 26). Today, the social gospel is filled to the brim with politics.

(Patrick Travis) #39

There are voices in “Christianity” that choose to look at society as “the church” and thus you have the “church” entering the political sphere pretending to declare to us what us “moral” in the socioeconomic arena. Somehow those voices don’t see that as an inpingment/blending on “separation of church & state” mission.
They dont recognize their view of “socio-economic morality” is just that, a view. That’s why the current Papa views are aligned most closely to Bernie Sanders, said his closest aide, in the 2016 election.

(William Noel) #40

I am not evaluating what Ted Wilson said because I do not know the larger context of his statement. My point here is how much things have become stereotyped and misunderstood so misunderstanding gets multiplied.

As a church we have typically defined “soul winning” as counting those who we have convinced to accept our published list of doctrines when the ministry of Jesus was far more and far different than that. Jesus let people know that God loved them so He willingly and generously forgave their sins. He healed the sick, fed the hungry, cast-out demons, cleansed the lepers and raised the dead. His entire ministry was focused on demonstrating the immense love of the Father. More than three years before Pentecost He was introducing the disciples to the power of the Holy Spirit so they would be learning to minister in the same way as He was doing. We claim to be followers of Jesus and ministering in the same way as He did, yet we’re not doing what Jesus did. The Holy Spirit was given to believers so we can each minister in the love and power of the Father. Yet we’re not teaching it or practicing it. As a result, Satan has been able to successfully confuse us with the deception of “social justice” because it lets us think we’re doing at least a little bit of God’s work when we’re actually disobeying God because we’re attempting to do it in human power instead of God’s power. The REAL social justice is individuals ministering God’s love to others in the power of the Holy Spirit.