On Rejecting the Spirit of Prophecy

(Patrick Travis) #161

Thanks C,
I thought so too. That’s where we live. IF one believes MAGA…guess they are lost… But…Liberals are open minded :slight_smile:

(Frankmer7) #162

Free will is surely impacted and shaped by so much more than those who tout it will acknowledge… even when we speak of decisions for Christ. How can we see personal responsibility regarding this as being equal when comparing one who was raised in a Christian household to a woman raised in Afghanistan under Taliban rule?

Never mind all the advantages and crushing disadvantages that you named when considering life choices. A child educated in Bronxville, N.Y., one of the most affluent communities and top school systems in the US, is operating on an entirely different playing field than one educated 12 miles south, say in Mott Haven…in the South Bronx. To pretend that they have equal access to the “American dream” is a fantasy. The latter begins and often ends at a huge disadvantage because of societal and systemic reasons beyond , and that impact, their personal choices.



(Patrick Travis) #165

How in the world did Jesus make it?
What privileges did He have from Nazareth? OF ALL PLACES?
With food, shelter and clothes be ye content.


Perfect timing for welcoming this new Sabbath! Many thanks for sharing, Cassie! And dear Mahalia… what an inspired voice!

(Frankmer7) #167

C’mon, Pat. You speak mostly of Jesus as the Son of God as the one who died for our sins. You center your understanding of the gospel on JBF, imputed righteousness for people who don’t have a prayer apart from such grace. You certainly don’t emphasize Jesus as example. Now you hold him up as example for the kids in the South Bronx and every other under privileged or even war torn area, as if his ability to choose means they are on an equal playing field in life with the people of the Scarsdales and the Bronxvilles and the 90210s of this world? All they need to do is just make the right choices and accept personal responsibility for them?

I don’t discount the need of such. I simply don’t buy that it boils down to this alone, without consideration of the many things that hold back and practically crush people living in such conditions. Kids in classrooms without textbooks, without technology, with 30-40 kids per class are expected to compete with kids from Greenwich, CT?

And, if we get serious about addressing such inequities, then that puts the responsibility on all of us to try and better the conditions of our society and world. Not just say that people living in such conditions have free will and are responsible for their choices…and hold up Jesus as an example.





There is a balm
In Gilead
To make the wounded whole
There is a balm
In Gilead
To save a sin-sick soul

If you
Cannot preach
Like Peter
If you cannot preach like Paul
Oh, you can tell
The love of Jesus
You can say
He died for us all

There is a balm
In Gilead
To make the wounded whole
There is a balm
In Gilead
To save a sin-sick soul

Sometimes I feel discouraged
You know and I feel
Like I can’t go on
Oh, but then the Holy Spirit
Revives my soul again
Revives my soul, my soul again

(Patrick Travis) #169

Jesus example was not dependent on earthly governments. Go and do thou likewise.
I believe the “lefts” agenda is based on materialism as the answer.
I believe Christ is the answer. Try that on your political left of today!

(Patrick Travis) #170

You got part of it Correct. Who has had power In Chicago and New York and the areas you speak of for a generation? How’s it going? The answer always, we need more money.

Please dont misunderstand, Chistians have a role. The state is not the fountainhead and substitute for Christ. That’s if you pardon me is bassackwards. That’s what I’m saying.

(Frankmer7) #171


Accepting responsibility to meet the need of the under privileged and the under served is Christian. Whether that’s done on an individual level, or by seeking to influence on a systemic level to provide such, is consistent with the example of Christ. It is speaking up for the powerless to the powers that be, in order to to bring justice. Wilberforce and the abolitionists are examples of this. Simply attributing the problems of the poor to their poor choices and the solution to just making better ones, does not seem in line with the prophetic voice of the Scriptures, nor of the gospel as I understand it.



(Patrick Travis) #172

You really aren’t hearing me Frank, I suggest .
Johnson was going to stop poverty 50 yrs. Ago. The wealth discrepancy is more now than 1965.
And personal responsibility and accountability is never out of date for rich or poor. It takes generations of familiy conduct to do that and turn things around. It doesn’t just happen or rely on government money to make character changes
Most now accept the " social gospel"
Is the gospel. It is not! It is Christ came and died to save sinners. Repent. JN 3:16 onwards.
But, social gospelers…keep giving people an excuse not to,after all they didnt have privilege.

NITE time on the east coast.

(Kim Green) #173

William, perhaps you should go back and reread on my comments where I have repeatedly acknowledged what you believe and your position. It isn’t hard for me to believe from your perspective what you believe…I just say that it isn’t the definitive answer for everyone. You appear to disagree. So be it.

(Kim Green) #174

"No, it is not “beyond speculative” because through the variety of my ministry experiences God has shown me a consistency in His principles that exactly matches others who are also involved in ministries that are guided and empowered by the Holy Spirit."

Yes, this is your experience and position.

"It is merely hard for you to believe because you’ve made it clear you defending the popular and highly varied philosophy of social justice."

Actually, William, I am not against Social Justice per se…but I am more opposed to the concept of limiting God (not be able to work through Social Justice causes).

"That’s been my experience for going on 13 years so the concept of “social justice” to me is about as attractive as the idea of drinking poison."

My, my, what an extreme reaction…

(Patrick Travis) #175

One more comment “big Thought” before bed . The “gentiles” are quite critical of OT teaching the land was returned every 50 yrs and debts remitted every 7…to level the playing field . How’s that working out?
That is scorned by every nation. Left, right,centrist. I do realize their is a problem. Just dont believe/accept the common solutions.

(George Tichy) #176

So I must conclude that you support “Social Injustice.,” correct?
Autch. How can that be???

(Peter) #177

…there is neither Jew nor gentile!" “The people of Israel” as you seem to describe it is not a new covenant concept. Christ changed that.

(Kim Green) #178

Jesus went against the cultural status quo of the time when he spoke to the women at the well and allowed Mary and Martha to accompany him, etc. There are other examples in the Bible that show he was truly a Social Revolutionary and I believe that He would have been, in our day and age, in the thick of Social Justice issues.

You clearly have a different perspective on the subject based upon what your experiences have been. I can accept this but know that there is another valid POV as well. You don’t have the same perspective.

(Peter) #179

Do you consider Christ’s description of those who will be saved (Matthew 25) the “social gospel”. To me, it describes both what individuals and society (by vote in our democracy) are responsible for. “Social gospel” is a Biblical mandate, not a dirty word.

(Frankmer7) #180


I’m not saying that Johnson’s war on poverty has succeeded, Pat. Nor did I say that there is no place for personal responsibility. But, here is the Christian problem in all of this as I see it…it’s a narrow gospel that centers on forgiveness of sin and a ticket into heaven, as if that’s the main or sole focus. While the gospel certainly addresses the individual forgiveness of sin, I think that the NT reveals a gospel that shows that Jesus came to bring a new genesis, a new way of being human that transcends all the barriers, divisions, and injustices on the basis of race, ethnicity, class, gender etc., that characterize this present age. It is the gospel of the kingdom/reign of God.

While I don’t pretend that earthly governments are the ultimate instruments of the king to bring about this vision, I do believe that if we are serious about being citizens of God’s kingdom of love and justice and shalom, and if we pray thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven, then we will seek to extend this to all, Christian or non Christian. And, that includes not only individual effort, but also seeking to speak to power for the powerless, and partnering with them where possible to bring healing, wholeness, and wellness, wherever and however we can.

Thanks, Pat…


(Patrick Travis) #181

It’s the “however” I have a problem with Frank. Dont choose to be “debating” this area. Feel it is a necessity.

(Patrick Travis) #182

The social gospel always depends on the purse of government. Somehow that is not a violation of church and state. Ths social gospel had/has nothing to do with Mt.25. It is to the church and household of faith in Christ.