Jason, don’t let that stop you!
Seriously though, when you do arrive at the pearly gates, please explain your plight to the One who knows how to ask questions how black fatherlessness impacts the community in these areas that you love - and tell them how you overcame these things, and what you personally constructively did to remedy them
Adam blaming Eve for his failures didn’t work any better than Cain blaming Abel-you blaming whites for these ills you harp on aeems to be equally off base.
Which again brings up that other issue-gender based discrimination is far more entrenched, systematic, and damaging to society. What have you done to correct this evil? Women still earn less…and are discriminated against, even in our very church.
There are far more instances where racism is NOT-but no one looks at those incidents. Not doing so, and focusing only on the “race porn” is a type of lie. It’s been opined that every day some 3 million police interactions are conducted which are clearly not racist-but according to you and your very restricted and intentional tunnel vision, these are irrelevant…
I appreciate what I think I detect as your concern, @Timo, and reject what I take as your usual false charges, but, most of all, as is typical, I don’t really understand what you’re saying, and, sadly, increasingly, I don’t care.
The one exception is this statement:
In response:
If you’re not lying, what are your example(s) of this?
Or is this an interjection by the moderator of this forum? I’m unclear.
I think it’s an addendum by you, @Timo. It seems more in line with things you’ve said before, and bears your amazingly indifferent approach to written communication.
What I can say is that the white default, to bringing up “black-on-black crime,” when Black people raise police brutality/white supremacy as a subject, is a racist chaff flare, or countermeasure, akin to those that warplanes use to mislead and deflect incoming missiles:
In other words, it’s a distraction, and not to be taken seriously.
As for your model—that white fragility has a Black counterpart—I agree!
However, it’s not a Black inability to “admit their own tribalism, err, racism.”
It’s a Black unwillingness to tell white people what Black people really think about racism. Most Black people find themselves unable to do this in an orderly, straightforward way, and/or without extremely high, often debilitating emotion. Because of this, they often avoid the subject.
Of course, if they do finally mount the will to speak to white people about race, they are usually met with high white hostility; e.g., of the sort you typically bring to my words.
The difference between me and many Black people, however, is not only is your hostility just laughably silly to me , but, as I’ve ably shown, when it comes to calm, orderly, logical discussions of race, to quote Captain America:
Hi @Harry_Allen, thank you for your question. That paragraph in bold was added by @Timo at a later time than his original post (hence his beginning it with “Edit to add:”). It was NOT written by a moderator. You can see what edits were made to a comment by clicking the pencil icon in the top right of a comment. In addition to showing what edits were made in the screen that pops up, it will also show who made the edits and at what time.
Stating (hundreds of times) that racism is exclusively white supremacy, reveals a horrible bias and will probably get nobody to agree with it.
The concept itself is flawed, and will remain flawed no matter how many times it is thrown in the mix. The color of my skin doesn’t automatically make me a racist. I wonder if the endeavor to persuade others that all white (and only whites) are racists may actually be one of the manifestations of racism,…
White supremacy is one form of racism, sure. But it’s not the only way racism is manifested. Living is SoCal we know well how rageful is the interaction between Mexicans and Blacks. That’s another example of racism. And there are tens, hundreds of forms of racism around the world.
I will not continue in this conversation because you have a clear agenda on the issue, and we already discussed it more extensively some time ago. No need for more of the same for me.
You know Harry, I would read your posts if you didn’t feel the need to double post everyone else’s words which we all have already read. Myself, George and others have tried to show you how absolutely ridiculous this is but your determined to continue the practice. Count me as one of those just not going to listen to what you are saying and it has nothing to do with content. It’s your presentation.
Same here. I have been scrolling down his posts. For two reasons, One is the format as you mentioned, and the second IS content, as I explained above in post #27. I am done with that issue.
I’m not clear what the “horrible bias” is, to which you refer, @GeorgeTichy.
What is it? Please state it, explicitly, as opposed to just saying that there is one.
As for this statement:
As I’ve already stated, white people typically reject these claims, on their face, much as you are doing now.
Meanwhile, non-white people typically do not. In my experience, a common non-white response is a nod, accompanied by a momentary, somewhat faraway gaze that seems to indicate a cognitive conclusion and insight.
I think of these exchanges as being akin to the acknowledgment of the “God-shaped hole” that many Christians say each person bears, even if not aware of it.
I think each non-white person possesses a “Racism has a sole functional form: White supremacy; Racism is a global system; All non-white people are victims of white supremacy in all nine areas of people activity”-shaped hole. At least, that’s been my experience.
Thus, I consider your conclusion, that, my emphasis, “nobody [will probably] agree with it,” something of an overstatement, particularly if one notes that most bodies are non-white.
You said:
In response:
I’m not clear what the “flaw” is, to which you refer, @GeorgeTichy.
What is it? Please state it, explicitly, as opposed to just saying that there is one.
You said:
In response:
That’s correct.
You said:
In response:
It’s an excellent question.
I say that it would first depend on how one defines the term racism.
Many white people define it weightlessly; i.e., utilizing a definition from Merriam-Webster that begins with the words, “A belief….” In other words, racism is a thought.
(1) The scientific practice of unjust subjugation, misuse, and/or abuse of persons classified as “non-white,” by persons classified as “white,” on the basis of color or non-color, and/or, on the basis of factors “associated with” color or non-color.
(2) White Supremacy.
[Note: It is incorrect to use the term “White Racism.” To use this term is to imply that Racism exists in a form other than White Supremacy].
So, based on that definition, the endeavor you critique—“to persuade others that all white (and only whites) are racists”—might only partially be one of the manifestations of racism.
That is, I do endeavor to persuade others that only white people can practice racism. That’s true as long as racism is white supremacy, and the first requirement for engaging in white supremacy is that one be white.
But I do not endeavor to persuade others that all white people are racists.
If someone were to ask me, “Are all white people racists?”, I would say, and I have said, “I do not know.”
So, if a white person said, “All white people are racists,” but said it, knowing it to be false, I would consider that a manifestation of racism, since deceit is the chief weapon of a racist.
You said:
In response:
Again, I say there is only one, and white supremacy is it.
I do this, in my answer concerning “Hutus and Tutsis.”
To the degree that the following are non-white people, I hold this to encompass your contentions re: “Mexicans and Blacks,” as well as re: “tens, hundreds of forms of racism around the world.” There is no such thing. (See “NABISCO,” above.)
Of course, now, and/or at any point in the future, I invite those who disagree to refute my argument.
You said:
In response:
You must be thinking about someone else.
I haven’t had any discussion with you about an “agenda” I possess, unless I spoke to you about this: The development of a counter-racist logic system that non-white people, globally, might adopt and employ, in order to eliminate white supremacy and replace it with justice.
• I think white supremacy, and issues concerning racism, can be coherently discussed by non-white people through such a prototypical system.
• I think the objections of racist suspects, aka white people, can be both met and disassembled through such a prototypical system.
• Most of all, I think non-white people can derive clarity in the midst of confusion, through such a prototypical system.
If I do have an agenda in this area, it’s that, and that’s it.
No Harry I haven’t changed my position. I hoped to communicate a second time that your opinion is important and should be read. I just think your audience is getting smaller.
If what you say is true, then please find at least a single instance, in any place, where I say, “All white people are racist.”
The number of white people in this forum who insist I’ve said this—you, @ajshep, @GeorgeTichy—seems to grow with each passing day.
Yet, no one can produce a quote.
Why is this the case, do you think?
Thanks for the suggestion.
Also, one more detail: Where is racism NOT, @Timo? Offer me GPS coordinates, please.
As well, please let me know: As a white person, how did you verify there was no racism in this place, and/or in these places? Walk me through your process.
In other words, because racism is white supremacy, and since, as a white person, you can’t be a victim of it, how did you correctly ascertain that there are such places?
Are these places that are permanently devoid of racism? Or, do they wax and wane there, like phases of the moon?
What happens if, in these place, a white person tries to practice racism? What I’m asking is, what happens, in order to make sure that their effect is undelivered?
I suspect that, as usual, you don’t know what you’re talking about. I expect that I will not get any useful answers to these pertinent questions; the ones that naturally jump out of your counsel.
I say this because, if you are a racist, your job, at least in part, is to a) make fun of me—e.g., to mock and ridicule me, and my efforts—and to b) withhold information that is useful; e.g., the answers to my questions.
Of course, I don’t know if you are a racist, or not.
What are “DAILY white-black exchanges that are clearly not racist,” @Timo? Name one, please, and explain why it’s not racist.
As you do, keep in mind what I said to @JasonHines, in my response to his excellent essay, above.
He said racism “continues to infect and affect us.” Most here, including you, would probably agree with this statement.
I argued, however, that
If what I’m saying is true, then, again, what are “DAILY white-black exchanges that are clearly not racist,” @Timo? You say there are “hundreds of millions” of them. So, name one, please, and explain why it’s not racist. I’ll respond.
But if what I’m saying is not true, then, clearly and objectively, refute it. I’ll respond.
There’s a popular belief that people of color can’t be racist because they don’t have enough power. Racism, the thinking goes, transcends prejudice. It’s a system of advantage based on race and people of color don’t have the institutional power to oppress others.
But Ibram X. Kendi systematically demolishes this notion in his provocative new book, “How to be an Antiracist.” Kendi, a lean man with long dreads and an encyclopedic knowledge of Western history, says the notion that black people can’t be racist is tainted by racism itself.
“Like every other racist idea, the powerless defense underestimates black people and overestimates white people,” Kendi says.
I would say you fall into Kendo’s observation. You overestimate whites and underestimate blacks.
I have said that you feel all whites are racist, and tell me I am lying when I say it. You do not say in so many words “All whites are racists”, but you infer it.
But see what you say in this post:
I am not the only one who thinks that you think all whites are racist:
Here is Timo from June 2, on I Can’t breath.
And Micheal Roberts, June 29, I can’t breath who was favorable to your side:
While I also appreciate harryallen’s perception of the problem, I take issue with the assertion that as long as Blacks face discrimination, all whites are somehow racist
About the black conferences joining the white ones:
I have shown you that blacks will join white churches when there are black churches near by. Why? I actually think they like the white service better than the black one. White worship services are different than black ones. Not inferior, just different. It’s a different culture.
An older black lady, I have mentioned before, left the black church she attended many years ago, joining the white one near by. Why? She thought there was some shenanigans going on that he did not approve of. I am not sure what, but she switched years ago.
Harry, you are just to narrow in your assessment; you cannot assume racism all the time.
I have probably said enough.
But I think you shackle yourself with White Supremacy. That may sound strange, but most whites don’t care what you think about race. They are just trying to get along. You can just live your life and be free, for most of us have no problem letting you be free. But you say all blacks are dependent on whites in some regard. But it is just really not so.
I own apartments; I am a big rich white landlord. All the tenants are black. Pretty racist, huh? They are dependent on me for their very housing.
But it really is just the opposite. If they stop paying rent, I go down, can’t pay the mortgage, foreclosure. I am actually dependent on them. And with Covid, I am not allowed to evict anyone! Fortunately, only one has stopped paying rent, for he lost his job. But if they all stopped paying, where would I be. Yep, in the toilet.
So, Harry, start living, stop looking over your shoulder, fearing some white supremacist lurks there. I think you will find it much more rewarding and exciting. You’ll actually get to know some real white people, too.
My tenant paid me rent. I fixed his broken toilet. I had a nice chat with a black barber the other day as he inspected my apartment to see if he wanted to rent it. Again, I was dependent on him, and all the people that come (they are all black), to keep in business. He decided to take the apartment, but asked if I would fix some things. I did.
How well would it go if I looked down on them and scoffed at their requests? I don’t, I treat them as equals, so I do OK with the business.
Have some cheated me? Yes. Do all of them do that?. By no means. I have had probably more trouble with white tenants, when I had a building at Andrews.
I am sure you see the above exchanges are somehow racist. But they are not.
Well, it’s not about “all whites are racists.” It’s about racism occurring only among whites - as if Blacks, Asians, Hispanics, etc., could not be racists too. This is our disagreement.
Same here as well, after months or years of watching it happen the time has come when I just go right on by without looking or reading. Just not worth the effort wading through all the he said I said she said they said you said everyone said, over and over and over again.
Dr. Kendi is welcome to his ideas. I’d invite him to explain them by refuting mine.
He hasn’t done so, and he hasn’t offered to do so. You’ve merely presented a quote, purportedly, by him.
See above.
That’s not true.
At this rate, I need a “That’s Not True” button, when replying to you, just to save keystrokes. You must be dynamic in church board meetings. Thank Heaven for minutes, eh?
You say that I have SAID the following: "All white people are racist."
If you had made a statements about my feelings, I would have merely said that you’re not credible on my thoughts.
You haven’t, in this instance, spoken about my thoughts. You’ve spoken about my words. So, present the evidence.
You are, as we say in hip-hop, bugging.
Great. That’s better. You’re actually quoting me. This is progress. We’re halfway home.
The above, three excerpts are all true statements. Now, extrapolate the part that states, “All white people are racist.”
Go ahead. I’ll wait.
Gonna call foul, here, and not reproduce these quotes. I’m going to skip over them, though not without comment:
Again, for the second time in your response, you’ve bent the discussion to one about my feelings.
Thus far, up until now, your charge has been that I’ve said something specific, namely: "All white people are racist."
So, I’ve asked you to produce evidence of this.
In response, you’ve started talking, not about what I’ve said, but about what I think.
You’re not credible on my thoughts.
Also, now, you’re bringing in “evidence” that you are “not the only one who thinks that you think all whites are racist.”
These other people are not credible on my thoughts, either.
You can’t change the game mid-stream, @ajshep. If nothing else, two things should be obvious:
I pay very close attention to what I say, and
I pay very close attention to what other people say.
If your charge is that I have said, “All white people are racist,” produce the evidence for the charge.
If you don’t have the evidence, say, “I have no evidence.” But do that before you try something novel.
Moving on to the next sub-topic:
a) We weren’t discussing this. We were discussing why Black, or “regional,” conferences are not eager to merge with white, or “state,” conferences.
b) Your statement, thus, is not responsive to my quote.
You make a lot of contentions. But when I ask you to explain, or, better, when I pose a specific question—the answer to which would probably splatter what you’ve just said—you merely ignore it.
The chief weapon of a racist is deceit, and the primary tool of deceit are words. Racists say things to non-white people that are not true.
The secondary weapon of a racist is secrecy. Racists withhold useful information from non-white people.
So, for example, racists ignore the questions non-white people ask, not giving answers, or, falling back on Weapon #1, answering them deceitfully, and/or untruthfully.
(One can answer a question untruthfully without using deceit. This happens, for example, when one gives an answer that is untrue, but does not know this.)
Of course, I am not calling you a racist, and never have, even though you have referred to yourself as one at least three times, and I suspect that you are one.
The Maximum Maxim: Any charge made against a victim of racism—a non-white person—during the existence of racism is usually more appropriately made against racism, itself.
E.g.: “I think you shackle yourself with White Supremacy.”
Response: "I could never ‘shackle myself’ with white supremacy as much as white supremacy shackles me with white supremacy.
"White supremacy dominates me in all nine areas of people activity: economics, education, entertainment, labor, law, politics, religion, sex, and war. I can’t do that.
"Under white supremacy, no non-white person can make a decision about anything that cannot be overruled by one or more white people. The reverse is not true.
“Under such conditions, any white person who says to a non-white person, ‘I think you shackle yourself with White Supremacy,’ is either a white supremacist, or should be strongly suspected of being one.”
Yes, probably. I say probably, because I can’t speak about white people’s thoughts; e.g., about what they “care.”
But, given white supremacy, I’d argue, “just trying to get along” is enough.
It’s like when I said to @Arkdrey that Black people, in such instances, are not talking about how you and other white people “think,” but how you function. White people, collectively, function as white people.
Doing that is enough for white supremacy, if the system is racist.
Sadly, you’re at least half a millennium late with this insight.
Under white supremacy, no non-white person can make a decision about anything that cannot be overruled by one or more white people. The reverse is not true.
That is the very Oxford Dictionary definition of dependent: “contingent on or determined by.”
See above.
So, you could say almost exactly the same thing about a Southern plantation of enslaved African people. Almost word for word.
Go ahead: Try it.
Thanks.
So, two things:
1) I strongly suspect that you may be a racist.
I say this because you readily deploy so many speech behaviors that racists do; e.g., deceit; secrecy; mocking and making fun of non-white people, especially the ones who are talking about eliminating white supremacy and replacing it with justice.
“So, Harry, start living, stop looking over your shoulder, fearing some white supremacist lurks there.”
What kind of language is this? What is it that you imagine that you’re saying to me? How, in your mind, do you imagine I am supposed to receive this suggestion?
You haven’t refuted a single contention I’ve made. Ever. I’m not talking about in this specific forum. I’m talking about in every interaction we’ve had over the past few years.
I’ve refuted every single one you have, however. The system of marking my responses that @GeorgeTichy and @2humBaby so resent—“You said”; “In response”—is designed, in part, to assure that everything stated is addressed.
If the brave new world of united Black / white conferences was ever realized as an SDA promised land, you, for the reasons I gave, above, would probably have to be left behind, like Moses in the cleft of the rock. More on this below.
2)Spectrum has generously provided this forum for the exchange of ideas on important issues. So, respect the process. If you can’t make serious responses, don’t post.
I am a patron of Spectrum’s system “in good and regular standing.” Also, I practice Seventh-day Adventism. Since you are a pastor, technically, I am also your parishioner.
I’d hate to think that, in a church full of Black people, like the one you say you oversee, this is the best you can do on race: Reminiscences about sweet apple “paah,” and glib dismissals about getting to know “some real white people.” You have a detestable bedside manner.
I could be a computer program, responding to you. Don’t talk to me about what I know. Read my words and respond to my words…in terms of my words. The only reason you propose I don’t know “some real white people” is because my ideas are probably intolerable to white people like you; the ones you deem “real.” They probably are real: Real white.
Do you think your gentle bromides are what they want to hear, as an explanation for why the world is the way it is? “If you have raced with men on foot and they have worn you out, how can you compete with horses?” (Jeremiah 12:5, NIV)
In each instance, please, explain why those exchanges are not racist.
By not racist, I’m saying ONLY the following:
I want you to show me, to my satisfaction, that no part or aspect of those five (5) exchanges, in any way, directly or indirectly, x) “involved,” y) was “affected by,” or z) was dominated by persons described in any, and/or all, of the following ten (10) categories:
a) Numbers 1 through 4, below, plus, below that,
b) Numbers 1 through 6:
Racist =
(1) A white person who, directly or indirectly, speaks and/or acts, in a manner that helps to establish, maintain, expand, and/or refine, the practice of White Supremacy (Racism), at any time, in any place, in any one or more areas of activity, including Economics, Education, Entertainment, Labor, Law, Politics, Religion, Sex, and/or War.
(2) A White Supremacist.
(3) A person [white] who practices White Supremacy (Racism).
(4) Any white person, who is mentally or physically able to speak, and/or act, to eliminate White Supremacy, but who does not do so.
Racist Suspect, and/or Suspected Racist =
(1) Any person classified as “white,” and/or “Caucasian,” who exists any place in the known universe, at the same time that any person classified as “non-white” exists, and functions, in direct or indirect subjugation to persons who practice White Supremacy (Racism).
(2) Any person classified as “white,” and/or “Caucasian,” who exists, and/or who had existed, during a time when White Supremacy (Racism) is, and/or was, practiced among the people of the known universe.
(3) Any person classified as “white,” and/or “Caucasian,” who, during any socio-material condition dominated by White Supremacists (Racists), has not proven, by both word, and deed, to the Victims of White Supremacy (nonwhite people), that he, or she, is not a White Supremacist.
(4) Any person classified as, and/or generally functioning as, “white,” and/or “Caucasian,” who is suspected of practicing Racism (White Supremacy), by any person who is “non-white.”
(5) Any white person who receives social and/or material “benefits” as a direct or indirect result of White Supremacy (Racism), but, who does not utilize all of those social and/or material “benefits” to help to eliminate White Supremacy.
(6) Any person classified as “white” and/or “Caucasian,” who, during any socio-material condition dominated by White Supremacy (Racism), attempts to engage in any form of sexual intercourse, and/or “sexual play,” with any non-white person.
, but, as I’ve ably shown, when it comes to calm, orderly, logical discussions of race, to quote Captain America:
